I am not irresponsible -just frustrated

Hernia Discussion Forums Hernia Discussion I am not irresponsible -just frustrated

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    • #31026
      Chuck
      Participant

      yes stupudly agreed to a double mesh lap tep surgery. I had a large indirect hernia on one side and suspected a small on the other. Of course my corrupt surgeon Sam Carvajal found a second hernia with a 2 second finger placement. I had no bulge and only some minor pain but bought into the idea that it was better to fix it now than have another surgery later. Very bad idea…now i have two large piece of Bard 3d max mesh implanted…and i have killer urinary issues…burning perineum pain…weak stream on occasion…and i never pee the same as i did. Contemnplating suicde. So I am also contemplating mesh removal….Good intentions …you did it and seem no worse for wear right? Saying to live with it is disingenuous…when you yourself had it pulled out. And are likely glad you did. Mark T when i was reaserching what to do…i spoke peronally with many folks who had tissue repairs desarda and shouldice…i came across many who were happy with their repairs that were still concdeding they had pain a year or more out…in addition there were lots of reviews on the shouldice page where people were saying they were in constant pain from the repair. On top of that a local lap surgeon told me he had met several patients from the clinic that had significant pain from shouldice repairs performed at the clinc. there are horror stories about every repair…if i could do it over i would go to kang…not many bad stories about him…maybe because they are all in korean.

    • #31028
      Good intentions
      Participant

      Chuck, you are trying to turn a multi-color or gray spectrum world in to black or white. I said that you should not have your mesh removed because you did not say that you actually had a problem that you could connect to the mesh.

      I had problems that were very very clearly connected to the Bard Soft Mesh in my abdomen. I tried to make the mesh work for a year, doing what my surgeon told me to do. I realized in the second year that I was not getting better, I was actually getting worse, and that my surgeon was trying to get away from me, avoiding the problem that he played a part in creating. I had personal family issues come up in the third year that delayed my efforts to have the mesh removed.

      There is no clear answer for anyone. The surgeons that are supposed to be experts seem to know as little as anyone else. They know how to get the mesh in, but they don’t know what to do when it has problems.

      I wish I had a clear answer for you. The best that I can say is to find a conscientious surgeon who has removed mesh. They have seen and thought about the problems.

    • #31030
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thx so much for responding GI…how did you know 100 percent that the problems you were experiencing were due to mesh? That is my issue…the mind is incredibly powerful at creating connections that might not exist. I just found a guy who completed a detailed study of the autoimmunity connection and found zero connection…and zero connection of local mesh inflammaatory conditions to systemic body issues…We have such similar cases and its why i am so interested in your responses…both double inguinal…lap tep mesh from supposed experts…and our second hernia was in doubt but our corrupt surgeons found and”fixed” them anyway. T think i have develpoed chronic pelvic pain syndrome inititated by the surgery…as an anxious person….that could have aggravated the condition…and i am wondering whether mesh removal might fix it. I would use belyansky who seems to have a good rep. It must have been pretty terrifying for you to initiate removal surgery given the lack of removal experiences back then…there are not many slam dunk succes stories…grant goode and mark tukcer and luke yamaguchi who also went to billings have good stories…where they incurred minimal damage from removal…luke was able to get a shouildice repair to fix his hernia after.. so i continue to mull removal…but i am approaching 60 those guys were much younger…removal could kill me

    • #31033
      William Bryant
      Participant

      Hello Chuck, although it’s a worry that we all with surgery, if the mesh is entwined to a significant extent that would cause more harm than good removing it, the surgeon would leave it. That’s why some people find some has been removed but some still is left in.

      When was your mesh put in?

      Has a Dr evaluated the urinary symptoms?

    • #31043
      Good intentions
      Participant

      All of my problems happened after the mesh was implanted. I could feel the mesh inside, the actual fabric, like when you rub your fingers on the teeth of a comb, at times. The whole of my lower abdomen, where the mesh was, became tight, flat, and hard, like having a plastic bowl inside. It was obvious.

      That’s why I suggest that you wait on mesh removal. If you aren’t sure that mesh is the problem, then it probably isn’t.

      It seems like you are good at finding things out. I was not aware of the other patients of Dr. Billing that you know of. Dr. Billing is a good example of a surgeon who sees surgery as his passion and profession, and uses that to help people with their problems. He is not part of the “expert” circuit and has no broader reputation that he is concerned about. He does not advertise hernia repair or mesh removal. He’s not active on the internet or giving talks at the big meetings. If you can find a good surgeon like that let them give you advice on what might be the cause of your problems and what to do about it. Ask your primary doctor or the PA’s or nurses who the good surgeons are. They know who is really good at what they do. Good surgeons don’t really need to advertise, they get plenty of business through the results of their work. No offense intended to those that do advertise.

      And, p.s., don’t use the meeting with the surgeon that is trying to help you as an opportunity to complain about the surgeon that screwed you up. I think that most surgeons are aware of the problems in the surgical field, there are bad surgeons out there, and can’t do much about them. Let the surgeon focus on what they can do to help you, not the things that they have no control over.

    • #31047
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thanks so much for your patience in responding GI….all of my problems started 6 weeks after my operation. All of a sudden I was having a hard time emptying…it felt like there was a plate or bowl sitting on my bladder. After emptying the urinary burning would come on. Did you have any urinary issues? In addition my abs below my navel just feel tight all the time…if I press anywhere between my navel and my pubic bone I get the urge to urinate—I don’t remember that being the case pre-surgery. I don’t have any sharp aches or pains…but the whole area just feels differect…stiff and tight…and I have constant prostatitis urinary pain —some say the pelvic floor muscles are spasming as a result of the operation and the stress of my anxious nature. But I have always been anxious and never had these miserable symptoms. My inclination is to try to take the mesh out…I am suicidal now anyway…so maybe throw a hail mary and remove it with Belyanksy…he said he wouldn’t have to cath me and he though he could complete the operation in two hours…that seems like as stretch given 3-4 hours for many with single mesh. any thoughts? how are you doing these days? Would you say most of your mesh removal symptons have gone?

    • #31050
      Chuck
      Participant

      and can I ask you where your inguinal mesh was placed? It feels like mine was shoved into the area right above where my penis is attached–then extends throughout the area currently covered by pubic hair (sory if TMI).. then upwards towards the navel…that area continuously feels as if its under urinary pressure. But if the mesh isn’t that low…maybe I am wrong. It just seems like all the problems came on after the mesh…and have persisted since…common sense would dictate taking it out and seeing what happens…have a death with dignity method at the ready should surgery make me worse. I never thought hernia surgery might cause my death…if I had I would have studied it a lot harder.

    • #31054
      Chuck
      Participant
    • #31055
      Good intentions
      Participant

      I did have bladder pain when it got very full, in the first weeks or two after implantation. Then one night while lying down I felt something shift inside, like it was letting loose, and that problem went away.

      If you do have mesh removal one thing you might have to do before surgery is to have the inside of your bladder examined using an endoscope to see if erosion has occurred. If the mesh is attached to the bladder that makes the removal more complicated.

      Here is a good paper showing what they do for a typical TEP mesh placement. Click “Download” and a pdf file will open if you want to read the paper. They create a cavity all the way to the pubic symphysis which is right above the penis. That is where I could feel the mesh rubbing back and forth when I was riding a stationary bicycle, for example. Very disconcerting.

      https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mesh-positioning-and-clips-placed-in-one-of-the-meshes-The-indicators-x-and-y-represent_fig1_319707793

      Certainly, a “hail mary” is better than suicide. But, still, find a surgeon who understands mesh problems, and that you trust. It is difficult to do, but without formal education and experience, we’re all just internet doctors.

    • #31057
      Chuck
      Participant

      GI thanks so much again for your help…so sorry for any aspersions I have cast on you…you are helping me a lot…if that diagram represents my mesh placement with that silver metallic looking rod pointing downward representing the penis…then I see Exactly why I am having problems as feel pressure surrounding my penis. Another surgeon had indicated that the mesh was placed about the area where the pubic hair starts…but this cleary shows the mesh bunched all around the penis….and that is exactly where I am getting all the pressure and burning pain…it doesn’t manifest as nerve pain so much as just pressure on the bladder almost…huge pieces of mesh too…I am amazed they were able to get it all out of you without major consequences…I know you are reluctant to chat by phone…but is there anyway you can make an exception. I am happy to paypal you for your time…that drawing solved a lot of my questions…but it also suggests that getting that mesh out will be very touch without damaging the penis and its stuctures…if we chat on the phone I wont ask you for opinions or recommedations…but you are clearly a very bright and well informed indidual…and would love to pick your brain for a few…I hope you will agree to quick phone cosult….I don’t think what I have is CPPS…I just think the mesh is bunched deeply in my groin and causing the issues I am experiencing….if you are agreeable to a quick call can you message me on the site? I promise I will be in your eternal debt…

    • #31058
      Good intentions
      Participant

      You should get a copy of your records from the surgery. Usually the medical center or the surgeon will have them. They should have the details of the procedure and the mesh used. You might have to get records from both places. The surgery center would have the record of the mesh, as the supplier, the surgeon would have his/her individual notes of what they did. Unfortunately, some surgeons copy notes from past surgeries if they feel that they are similar enough. I was referred to as “she” in my notes, and there was a mention of several titanium tacks, which were never seen by MRI or found by Dr. Billing.

    • #31060
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thanks GI…i do have the notes and i have a pelvic mri….the notes say two bard 3 d max meshes were placed along with a catheter…does this bear on removal at all? some say its tougher to remove 3d max mesh…others say its easier….berlyansky said he could get it out…but he didnt advise how i would feel after…

    • #31062
      Good intentions
      Participant

      It might be time to dig a little deeper in to the notes. Most of your posts on the forum are just skimming along the top, like random simple thoughts. There’s not much detail.

      For example –

      1. Why was a catheter placed? That is not standard procedure.

      2. what size mesh was used. There are several.

      3. Was it 3DMax light or regular? Might not matter but it’s good to know.

      4. Was fixation used? BD says it does not need it but many surgeons get nervous and do it anyway.

      5. What do the notes say about the actual dissection process? Were there any problems? They nicked my peritoneum and had to put an extra needle in to maintain the pressure differential so the peritoneum didn’t collapse in to the dissected space.

      6. Was there another doctor present? There was in my case and sometimes I wonder if my surgeon did the actual procedure or if he used me as a training subject. As I mentioned earlier he was part of a group that trained surgeons in laparoscopy.

      There might be details in there that explain some of your problems. The biggest one is why do you have a catheter NOW? Even if one is used during mesh implantation it is usually removed after. It should not be permanent. What did they damage?

      Here is some 3DMax literature. Click “Products and Accessories” to see the sizes.

      https://www.bd.com/en-us/products-and-solutions/products/product-families/3dmax-mesh

    • #31064
      MarkT
      Participant

      When looking at raw numbers (e.g. finding bad reviews), it is important to keep in mind how many repairs any particular surgeon is doing and the time frame involved.

      Compare these two cases and tell me who you would prefer operating on you:

      Surgeon A: 700 cases (per year), 5% of patients (35) report problems, and 1 in 5 of those patients chooses to post a bad review online…a total of 7 bad reviews.

      Surgeon B: 100 cases (per year), 10% of patients (10) report problems, and the same 1 in 5 patients posts a bad review online…a total of 2 bad reviews.

      All else being equal, it would be false to conclude that you are better off with Surgeon B. Despite fewer bad reviews over the same 1yr timeframe, patients were twice as likely to experience a problem.

      Clearly, I am alluding to Surgeon A being a Shouldice surgeon based on that case load…so now scale that up further and multiply Surgeon A’s figures by the number of surgeons at Shouldice Hospital. It will quickly become apparent how it might *seem* like there are ‘a lot of bad Shouldice reviews out there’ compared to other options, simply because of the volume of repairs being performed there per year (and even if Shouldice has a better rate regarding outcomes).

      This also applies when people say ‘oh, I talked to a doc who says he has seen several patients who reported problems with Shouldice’. We would actually expect to hear stories like this considering that Shouldice docs collectively do THOUSANDS of repairs per year. Even with a low problem rate, the raw number of problem cases will seem ‘high’. Statistically, we might expect that any particular external doc would be more likely to encounter a patient unhappy with Shouldice vs. Shouldice encountering an unhappy patient of that external doc, all else being equal.

      Raw numbers and anecdotal reports are not useless…we can learn valuable information from them…but they can potentially be *highly* misleading when the full context behind those numbers and reports is unknown or not considered.

    • #31066
      Watchful
      Participant

      MarkT – You are correct. The thing with the Shouldice Hospital, though, is that things get a bit complicated because you aren’t really selecting a specific surgeon, you’re selecting the hospital. You may get a surgeon who doesn’t actually have many of these under their belt, or even a trainee under supervision. Also, they have 3 or so doctors whose name pops up fairly consistently in bad reviews, and they’re still there.

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