Jnomesh
Forum Replies Created
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Hi Liz. I had the same mesh implanted in me 7 years ago. Unfortunately this type of mesh has the tendency to fold over and clamshell on itself Bc of its design. It is concave in nature so any force from the muscles or tissue can cause it to fold over. I had inflammation, the feeling like my stomach was bloated and distended and a overall feeling like something was stuck inside of me.
there are many posts on this form from people who are in pain and have the same bard 3D maxx mesh and I am on a FB mesh forum and have come across about 10 men and women who ended up having their 3D maxx removed and it was discovered that it was folded up. All were told everything was fine with the mesh by doctors and other Surgeons.
for me after about 5 years of dealing with flare ups of pain and alway having a brick like feeling I’m my abdomen, things got really worse-and I developed pain that was even more horrendous and this time crippling, to the point of not being able to work for a while and not being able to socialize and do much with my family and kids.
i did some research and googled the bard 3D maxx mesh and saw a bunch of lawsuits against it and the flaws in its design.
after joining the mesh forum I visited about 3 surgeons who specialize in mesh issues before finally going with dr. Igor Belyanski in MD.
he saw on a cat scan, same cat scan that all the other radiologist and surgeons said looked fine-that the mesh had bent and shifted. I had the mesh removed in a lengthy 3.5 hours surgery as it was much worse then he expected-the mesh had completely balled up and was rock hard.
i personally believe the Belyanski is tops when it comes to removing mesh laparscopically. He got a bout 90% of the mesh out. It was attached to all sorts of structures-the spermatic cord, illiac vein and bladder, and the mesh was also pressed up on my colon. He was carefully able to direct all the mesh off these structures leaving a some chards on the illiac vein and artery Bc it was to dangerous to remove.
pleaae feel free to message me if you have any further questions. I and sorry he is going through this but there is help out there-you just new to break free from your local networks and be willing to travel -
Dr. Belyanski is a highly skilled surgeon and you are in good hands.
i had my lapro implanted mesh removed the same way by him a year ago. Form what I’ve heard and the people I’ve spoken to it seems open removal is a little bit more invasive and can take longer to heal/recover-as you are most likely having three operations rolled into one
mesh removal
neurectomey
and most likely a hernia repair.
best wishes give yourself time to heal. -
Dr. Zoland was the surgeon who did my original hernia surgery and like you I found him very compassionate and he diagnosed me with a hernia that for a year no one else could.
however the mesh surgery didn’t go well.
i went back to him 3-4 times over the first year complaining of pain and not feeling right-my stomach would get bloated also.
Alm he would do was check for a recurrence which there was none. Eventually ordered some tests (MRI) which didn’t show much.
At a loss he turned the attention to my back.
like the majority of surgeons out there outside of a recurrence or maybe nerve entrapment surgeons push you away when pain doesn’t go away and either know and don’t want to concede or don’t know the dangers of mesh. I have come across a few other people that went to Zoland and issues afterwards.
anyways it turned out my mesh had folded up into a rock hard ball-and took years for it to finally be diagnosed by a surgeon who has experience with mesh issues.
it had to be removed in a very difficult and long operation.
i think it is a sad state of affairs the 99.5% of surgeons no matter how nice, compassionate and even skilled don’t recognize or no what to do when mesh goes bad.
There are many people out there like myself that are told their pain issues aren’t due to mesh and are pushed away and are made to believe that it isn’t the mesh causing the problems.
this is why I believe the pain or chronic pain issues due to mesh percentages are much higher than reported-Bc we are told it’s not the mesh.
there needs to be more pressure on surgeons and the mesh industry on the usage of the mesh.
if something meant to be permanent is being put into people and the surgeons aren’t trained in removing the mesh this is a big problem.
Good intentions you are so right and hit it in the head-Zoland authored a paper on chronic pain with little mention of mesh being the source or cause of the pain. Very ironic -
I would highly rx you look into dr. Igor Belyanski in Annapolis MD.
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There is a dr. Steven Haggerty I believe in the Chicago area that people have spoken about. He may be worth investigating as I believe he has done non mesh repairs. There is also dr. Igor Belyanski in Annapolis MD. He removed my defected mesh and will do a non mesh repair upon request. He is a highly skilled Surgeon but I know that even though he will do a non mesh repair it isn’t the same as finding someone that that’s all they basically do. Ie shoikdice Hospital, dr. Tomas in Fl who only does a desarda non mesh repair etc. anyways one step at a time-first see what dr. Towfigh has to say and find out if you even have a hernia in the first place.
ps when I had my mesh removed I had to travel out of state and my out of network benefits ended up paying for everything which I couldn’t believe. The surgery only ended up being something like $1300 which as I mentioned was covered by out of network benefits (they use some crazy calculations to determine coverage amounts), anesthesiology was $2700 but my surgery was 3 1/2 hours so you can figure a 1/3 of that cost for a standard hernia repair length of time-again out of network covers this amount and of course Hospital was covered by which I think would be covered by any insurance-so you may be surprised. The hardest part was talking to my insurance company and getting the codes and dealing with the whole process-to try and get a idea of how much would be covered
best of luck -
Hi Jen. You can get a copy of your MRI and CT scans-not the report but the actual CD of each scan and you can send it to dr. Towfigh. She specializes in reading g these scans and looking for hidden hernias. She can review the scans and then do a online or phone consult. So she can help confirm or rule out certain things.
If you have allergies esleicjkmy to plastic and or other auto immune issues you should stay away from mesh.
yes they can repair hernias the old fashion way but you need to know and understand it is very hard to find these surgeons. You also need to most likely come to grips that to get the best quality care you (at least reagarding hernias) you we going to have to travel and probably pay some costs out of pocket but it is well worth it to have things done right. So paying dr. Towfigh to have a consult in which she will review your scans is a great investment. If it turns out you do have a hernia it will again be a great investment t to travel to the few surgeons that repair these hernias without the use of mesh-get it done right.
Also understand if your local surgeon found a hernia upon your laparoscopic exploration they will 100% use mesh to repair it and yes mesh is made out of plastic and the mesh used for laparoscopic repair is quite large often at least 5” by 7” the size of a salad plate!
as med tuned also understand that even with only laparoscopic exploration a incision is made abover the belly button where the camera is passed through and although the incision isn’t big you are still being cut open and this can lead to a incisional hernia down the line. So don’t take this exploration lightly.
also I have come across a good number of females who went on to have hernias as a result of hysterectomies.
it is always best if you can avoid surgery of any kind and try anything and everything you can to treat or manage the problem I’m other ways.
i would start by having dr. Towfigh see if there is a hernia or not by reviewing your scans.
if there is a hernia I would get it repaired without mesh given your sensitivity to plastic etc.
there is the Shouldice Hospital in Canada that specializes in pure tissue repairs. There are a few Sutton’s in the US including dr. Towfigh that can do a non mesh repair. Don’t rush into anything and be willing to travel and invest in getting the best outcome -
I would highly rx dr. Igor Belyanski in Annapolis MD. Highly skilled surgeon who is seeing more and more patients with hernia and mesh issues . Expert at removing mesh if necessary.
there is also dr. Bruce Ramshaw in TN, dr. Towfigh and dr. William brown in CA to name just a few.
if you have a recent cat scan you can send it to dr. Belyanski and he will review it to see if there are any signs of mesh migration or folding etc as well as other things. Dr. Towfigh specializes in rewddk f MRI’s which could also be helpful in seeing if there are any other anatomical issues like a muscle tear or something. Do your research see a Couple of specialized surgeons travel if necessary-you want to get it right and resolve what is going on.
ive heard of dr. Rosen and many have been disappointed with his suggestions regarding hernia/mesh pain. He will removed openly placed mesh if it is very obvious that it is the mesh ie infection or pieces of the actual mesh coming through the skin as one person spoke of. -
I think most people are able to travel post op but if you are far away if possible you may want to consider staying in a hotel for a couple of days and stop in and see dr. Brown a couple days post op make sure all looks good and then travel back. This way you can recover a little bit, be close by should you need to see him for any reasons relating to the surgery and then get the clearance to travel back. Most surgeons want to see to back in a week or two anyways so this way staying local for a few days will mean yoibdknt have to travel back later.
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I should also point out this is one of the problems with using mesh of any kind Bc once issues arise there seems to be little to no help from the original implanting surgeon. Whether it be from infection , nerve entrapment, meshoma, autoimmune issues, foreign body reaction, inflammation-the big and to me inexcusable problem besides the pain one goes through is that there is very little help from the medical community. How irresponsible when one considers also that this is supposed to be a permanent device. I come across these horror stories all the time, patients in pain after mesh implantation being passed off from one doctor to another, test after test only to eventually be prescribed some sort of pain medication.
I mean the fact that this gentleman had to go online and do the research himself and thankfully come across this forum and thankfully hear back from dr. Towfigh they yes it appears to be mesh infection really highlights that something is wrong out there when things go wrong with mesh implantion.
we have thousands of surgeon implanting mesh for hernia surgeons and what seem to be far to few who are trained on mesh complications.
And this poor guy has the pictures tonshow there is obviously something very wrong and he was still gaslighted by his surgeon.
if mesh is going to be continued to be used things need to change. Surgeons first need to be trained on non mesh repairs at the very least equal to mesh repairs. They also need to be trained on mesh removal-and if they can’t do it then they can’t implant it. There also needs to be a mandatory registry that tracks mesh conpilications. You think this guys mesh issues got reported? Good luck. It’s obvious to me there would be tons of complaints documented if this were implemented Bc this is a perfect example of how it doesn’t get reported-the surgeon doesn’t give the proper diagnosis for whatever the reason, the patient gives up and moved on.
Dont get me wrong there are competent and reputable hernia surgeons out there but far far to few-when mesh goes wrong.
cant think of anything worse then the pain people go through with mesh issues except for being in pain and not being property treated for ones pain.
Thank you dr. Towfigh for your support-your level of care should be the standard not the exception. -
Yes mesh can be safely removed but only by a experienced surgeon such as the two mentioned and there is also dr. Igor Belyanski in MD. I have heard it mentioned that infected mesh is often easier to remove since often the mesh hasn’t fully incorporated into the surrounding tissue.
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If it were me and it was between dr. Brown and Chen I would definitely go with dr. Brown. This is his speciality open non mesh repairs. I would bet Chen does way more mesh repairs then ooen repairs and does way more laparoscopic repairs with mesh. The non mesh laparoscopic repair still seems to be in its infancy so I woundnt want to be a statistic.
Currently all the best tissue repairs-desarda shouldice bassini etc are all done openly.
please keep us posted on how your surgery goes! -
Well written John. As someone whose mesh has failed and cussed me pain for 6 years and was repeatedly brushed off from the medical community for years only to finally find a surgeon who saw my mesh was folded and had to have mesh removal and all the exhausting things that go along with that-I applaud everything you are saying in your post. Two quick tie bits from my own research:
1) you mentioned that non mesh repairs have a higher occurrence rate than mesh repairs-I think this is inaccurate-the Shouldice Hospital reports that the recurrent rates are less than 1% and chronic pain less than 1%- both these stats blow away the rates reported with mesh use. these stars are for the Shouldice Hospital only and I’m sure they are much higher for surgeons using this technique that have not been trained at the Shouldice Hospital.
2) regarding your own condition although I think it is suitable to take a wait and see approach if you have a hernia that is Asymptomatic it is also inpotsdnt to remember if the hernia gets bigger that impacts on the success rate of a non mesh repair. Just something to consider. I’ve heard many surgeons say if the hernia is bigger than X (not sure if exact size criteria) they will use mesh instead of a pure tissue repair. Of course I think the shouldice Hospital handles bigger hernias Bc they are suited to.
3) As I mentioned in another post dr. Robert Tomas has been trained by the founder of the Desarda repair and he is in Florida so no need to travel outside of the US for that repair.
4) the only thing that concerns me about the shouldice repair is that they cut the cremester muscle which they say helps to prevent future hernias. Not sure if one would miss this muscle but it kind of makes me a little nervous. However that wouldn’t sway me to mesh-only debate more between the desarda or shouldice repair. I’ve also been told that the desarda is a better repair for a direct hernia and not a indirect one and that a Marcy, bassini, and shouldice repair is the way to go for a indirect hernia. -
Dog-found this and it might be helpful to you
https://www.sportshernia.com/no-mesh-hernia-repair/repair/
this surgeon dr. Brown although he also specializes in sports hernias also specializes in no mesh hernia repairs and he breaks down the different techniques- shouldice, desarda bassini etc -
Open surgery is appropriate for both direct and indirect hernias. The surgeon will be also able to see if there is a indirect hernia present too.
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Unfortunately that can be hard to determine until the surgeon is actually in there. However based on your description of where the pain/discomfort is -it seems more likely to be a indirect hernia-if you do a giggle search you can see the location of the two types of inguinal hernias-direct and indirect. Ultrasounds can sometimes reveal which one you have it they are very operator dependent. MRI in the hands of someone who specializes in reading them-like dr. Towfigh who runs this forum may be able to tell. Not sure if a cat scan will aid in differentiating the two and of course maybe dr. Tomas or the surgeons and shouldice since this is all they see and do may be able to differentiate and tell which one you have. For me o was diagnosed with a indirect and when I had surgery the surgeon said I had both a direct and indirect which for me explained why I was in so much pain and discomfort and I actually felt it in two different albeit close proximity locations.
one surgeon told me all three type of growing hernia originated in a space not much bigger than a silver dollar-so that illustrates why sometimes the three can be hard to distinguish upon. By the way the third is a femoral hernia but they are much more rarer and even more rare in men.
hope this helps. -
Hey Dog. When I said second to none I was referring to the statistics the Shouldice Hospital reports less than 1% recurrence rate and less than 1% chronic pain rate and I think I’m reslity both are like .06%. I haven’t seen anyone or place best those numbers mesh or no mesh.
but desarda approach is great to and I think dr. Tomas quotes very low recurrence rated too.
either method or facility seems great.
but you do bring up a great point regarding tailoring ones approach to what is exactly going on once they get inside. I know of a highly regarded surgeon dr. William brown in San Fran who doesn’t use mesh and says that the method he uses depends on what he finds once inside and hebtailors that approach accordingly. Still I know he doesn’t use the shouldice or desarda but kind of a modified bassini approach. The truth is most surgeons have a style or approach they are use to and confident in and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing as you want to have they surgeon specialize in what they do. I’ve watched videos of the shouldice repair and the Surgeons say wverubsurgery and person is different but they still use the shouldice repair but they have to make adjustments to this repair once they actually operate.
also to make matters more confusing if you search these threads you will come across a dr. Kang in South Korea who has developed his own repair for indirect hernias and he has stated that he believes the desarda repair is more suited for a direct inguinal hernia not a indirect hernia. I believe the shouldice repair covers and reinforced both spaces-I’m not 100% certain of this though.
bottom line I think you will be fine if you choose either approach with either facility. -
It’s not only the technique but the surgeon performing the technique. Did not look at your link but dr. Tomas specializes in this technique and this is basically all he does.
the shouldice technique is a little bit more for lack of a better word “invasive” but it’s results reported seem second to none. Again you have to match the technique to the surgeon and the Shouldice Hospital is really only the best place to goto to get this done and done right.
i commend you in your path in seeking a non mesh repair! -
Also lapracooic hernia repairs place the mesh behind the muscle while this in theory has some benefits it placed the mesh closer to one’s intestines (only the peritoneum is between the mesh and ones intestine. IAlso usually a bigger piece of mesh is used for a lapro repair so the mesh covers a bigger area, while this has some advantages like reinforcing the femoral area and indirect and direct hernia areas with one piece of mesh (open mesh only reinforces direct and indirect spaces) the mesh has more opportunity to mess with other structures.
ooen repair also has its pluses and minuses-local anesthesi vs General for one.
also consider non mesh repair no foreign plastic mesh being inserted-.
And most of all whatever you do goto a specialist.
for example some meshes seem to be better or worse for thin people etc. don’t seek out a general surgeon seek at a hernia specialist even if it may mean traveling etc. the worst thing that can happen is a surgeon messes up and now you have to pay the price with a piece of mesh in you causing pain. -
The Shouldice Hospital reports that they have less than a 1% incident of chronic pain. I would strongly consider having a non mesh repair and their doesn’t seem to be any better then the Shouldice Hospital. There is also dr. Tomas in Florida that does a non mesh repair called the desarda. This is all these guys do and specialize in.
I would also stay away from the 3D maxx mesh-it Gomes up on me and caused years of pain until it was eventually removed in a tough and Long surgery. You can google it and you will see all kid of problems it can cause. It has folded up on other people too. Also understand a lapro mesh repair puts in a very large mesh often 5”x7” or bigger and it is close to all sorts of organs when it is put in lapro.
Again I’d rx you strongly consider the Shouldice Hospital-it’s recurrence rates and chronic pain rates are so much lower than with mesh and no issues of a foreign piece of plastic being inserted to you. My mesh attached to my bladder and had to be peeled off. It also attached to my spermatic cord and other arteries. And it was pressed up against my colon. Terrible stuff. -
Thanks. I’m approaching the year mark since my lapro mesh removal (mesh was balled up and rock hard-had it in me for 6 years). My remaining symptoms are like no others when I speak to other people who have had their mesh removed. I don’t have any “classic” pain. I move around fine and don’t hurt. What I go through seems to be in different areas and feels different when I walk (feel virtually nothing when upright) when I lie down (can be different degrees of burning and oresssure feeling- and better if I’m on my side) and sitting which is the worst. It’s not instantaneous when I sit but builds to a burning and pressure feeling. And to make matters worse the symptoms feel different depending on the type chair, it’s angle and depth. Someone’s I feel it in my side/flank area like something is fiercely pulling my whole side inward from the inside . Sometimes I feel pressure and burning in my upper thigh-sometimes if I take my thumb and put pressure on the thigh area when sitting it feels better-and if I lift my waistband up during any of my episodes I feel better, so I’m pretty sure whatever is going on is made worse by pressure from my waistband.
tje other interesting thing is the groin area where a hernia appears or is does not bother me at all-all my issues are more lateral on my left side-so outer groin crease and upper thigh and them at times the flank and side abdomen.
Like you I am trying to keep track of what and when things seem to bother me.
my surgeon very flippantly and in passing said my colon was pressed up against the mesh or vice versa and I seem to notice some of the left sided upper abdominal issues may occur after eating and what I eat. So I’ve definitely changed my diet and am tinkering with it as I go along.
sometomes in certain sitting positions I feel my whole left side abs are twisted or like someone is grabbing them from the inside so I really feel like the mesh mesh being folded up into a ball probably changed my inner abs and having removal probably didn’t help either. So I am seeing a wholistic body healer in 2 weeks. I actually saw her 3 years ago when I was having issues and she helped a lot. She is very gentle and intuitive. Unfortunately she is 3 hours away from me where my sister resides.
tje sitting is easily what bothers me the most and makes social activities very challenging and stressful.
I am back to gently playing sports with my kids and attending all their school and after school activities and feel kind in back to functioning in daily living. Unfortunately there are still these “pain” issues for me that I can’t seem to pinpoint what is going on. Most likely nerves to some extent although it is weird that burning would occurs when lying down and sitting but not standing up and walking. Still stumped
Always a pleasure to be able to keep in contact with other mesh removal people and I think the time you are giving to this forum is great and informative.
take care.