Had my surgery done finally – Shouldice

Hernia Discussion Forums Hernia Discussion Had my surgery done finally – Shouldice

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    • #33159
      Watchful
      Participant

      After a year of research, I finally had my inguinal hernia surgery done recently.

      The procedure I chose was Shouldice tissue repair, and I had it done at the Shouldice Hospital.

      I’ll post updates with time, but here are some observations so far.

      1) They used fairly light sedation with midazolam and fentanyl. I felt some of the local anesthesia (“freezing”) injections, and those were painful. I also woke up briefly during surgery while some stitching was being done, and it was also painful.

      2) Back in the room after surgery, I was in a lot of pain – I remember shaking with pain while talking to my wife on the phone. It subsided completely after a while. This pain doesn’t seem to be common because I asked other patients including my roommate, and they didn’t experience it. The surgeon also said that it was rare.

      3) I felt ok and was walking fine a few hours after the surgery. However, I started experiencing some seriously bad pain that evening, and this lasted for a couple of days before starting to improve. It was debilitating. You can get a truss which you can wear on top of tight underwear, and this helped me with this pain. It took me a while to discover this trick since they don’t really give you much information about what to expect during recovery, and how to handle it. This pain was not typical. Others whom I asked didn’t have it, and the surgeon found it unusual, and was concerned.

      4) Based on observing other patients there, the procedure is well-tolerated, although I had a worse experience. There is quite a lot of variation – some seem to be almost totally fine right away, and some do the “Shouldice Shuffle” while leaning on banisters. It seemed like most were well-enough to leave a day early.

      5) The ability to compare your recovery to that of others is a very problematic aspect that I didn’t expect. If you’re fine, then no issue, but if you suffer from pain that others don’t have, it makes you freak out. This was particularly problematic for me because I knew too much about what could go wrong, so I started playing all the worse-case scenarios in my head. The doctors and nurses aren’t particularly helpful on this because they don’t talk about recovery much, and don’t reassure much. It’s easy to fall into the pit of despair feeling like you’re among the unlucky 1% or whatever who end up with bad chronic pain.

      6) Luckily, my pain improved gradually after a couple of days, but it was truly scary.

      7) I feel much better now. There are some issues that I can describe, but they are improving. I would say that my recovery is going well at this time.

      8) They don’t really stick to all the details of the original Shouldice procedure anymore. I don’t know the percentages, but in many cases they don’t cut the cremaster/nerve, and they use prolene sutures instead of steel. I don’t have an issue with that – it just surprised me.

      9) The operating rooms which are in the basement were extremely cold. I was surprised they had to work in those conditions.

      10) The serious pain I had made me think about the issue of what to do if you have complications. You don’t get the feeling that they are equipped to diagnose and handle much of that. My surgeon started second-guessing some things that happened during surgery, but what do you do? Do you let them re-operate? Do you go somewhere else? Where? How do you even go anywhere if you have debilitating pain that doesn’t go away? Fortunately, my condition improved, but many stressful thoughts went through my mind until the improvement started.

      11) Even though I didn’t do well initially, I have to say that I was impressed by how well others did after the surgery. Many get some serious swelling after the surgery, and I’m guessing that my swelling was pressing on some nerves or some such thing. Maybe something specific to my anatomy. My pain subsided as my swelling subsided. It wasn’t clear what was going on while this was happening, and I (or my surgeon) couldn’t really tell if it was going to go away on its own or not because it was unusual.

      That’s it for now. I’m happy to answer questions, and will post updates if there’s interest.

      • This topic was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Watchful.
    • #33161
      Good intentions
      Participant

      Congratulations on being able to find enough information to make an informed decision. I’m sorry that your experience was not as smooth as the other patients you encountered. But, on the other hand, you are probably one of the best people to objectively describe the downsides of the Shouldice Hospital experience. From my own experience I suggest that take daily notes, like a diary, over the coming days, if you really want to retain how you felt and what you went through. The brain doesn’t recall stress-filled memories well when the stress is gone.

      You said “recently” but can you give a time estimate? Maybe you don’t want to tie yourself to a specific date at the Hospital, which is understandable. But maybe you can fudge it to within a few days.

      The comments about the variance from the standard procedure are interesting. Are you saying that individual Shouldice surgeons have leeway to modify the Shouldice procedure within the Shouldice Hospital?

    • #33162
      Watchful
      Participant

      GI,

      I do want to keep record of my recovery in some form and share it in case it helps others. Not sure how much help it is, though, because this aspect seems to vary a lot from person to person. I need to figure out how best to do this. I’ll post here since I feel loyalty to this forum after interacting with a few members here like yourself over the last year, but there isn’t much activity here for some reason, and it feels like there aren’t many readers. The reason for having so little action on this site is a mystery to me actually.

      Yes, they do have the leeway now to modify the procedure, at least in terms of deciding whether to cut the cremaster entirely, and whether to use steel or prolene sutures. Not sure about other aspects of the procedure – I didn’t see any indication that they deviate in additional ways.

    • #33163
      William Bryant
      Participant

      Good update Watchful. I can empathise with the worry about pain aspect as it would make you very worried. Especially being so well informed.

      Did they know you weren’t keen on cremaster cutting? And do you know if they did in your case?

      Also did you choose the sutures or do they?

      Sorry for all the questions! But one other, what made you choose Shouldice over Dr Kang for example?

      Re the cold operating room… I had an operation years ago in UK and said to the people wheeling me in, it’s freezing in here. And they said bugs dont like the cold. Not sure if that’s why but it did strike me how cold it was… And no windows.

      Glad you’re over worst, it’s a big blight to get over and I hope you continue to recover well.

      Was food as bad as they say?

    • #33164
      Chuck
      Participant

      Watchful thanks for posting…can you advise why you chose shouldice clinic? not knowing who was going to operate on you? Did you have an opportunity to discuss the cremaster and prolene suture issues? did they use stainless steal on you? who did your surgery? is there a surgeon there that is known to be the best? I am really surprised you went there…after detailed study i dont see how it can compare with Dr Kangs clinic….Stephen gives you more info by email than you get from shouldice on their website and in phone calls…it really strikes me as a very poor option…then hearing of your horrible pain confirms my suspicion that it is an invasive procedure that may not be necessary….please keep us posted.

    • #33165
      Chuck
      Participant

      would love to hear more…i just dont get how shouldice works…you show up not knowing who will operate….how they will operate ie cut cremaster or use stainless steel…i dont know if shouldice is even an option for me now with mesh removal…All i know is kang said he can fix me…and he seems like the best.

    • #33168
      Watchful
      Participant

      William Bryant,

      Thanks for the wishes for continued recovery. The pain isn’t currently debilitating like it was for the first couple of days after surgery, but I still get the same pain after certain activities, just in a milder form. It has been improving over time, but there are some setbacks. For example, last evening after I went for a walk it was worse than during the couple of days before that. Interestingly, it feels a lot like the hernia pain I used to get when the hernia came out, just worse than the hernia pain.

      I let the surgeon choose what to do. He didn’t cut the cremaster in my case.

      The food was far from the top of my list of things to be concerned about, but it was excellent while I was there.

      See below for the reasons for my choice.

    • #33169
      MarkT
      Participant

      Thanks for the detailed posting of your experience, Watchful.

      I’ve posted mine many times, but of course they are going back many years and we have wondered what has and has not changed. My main contribution at this point is anecdotal in confirming that both of my repairs were flawless with zero post-op complications or restrictions on activity to date, one side done 30 years ago, the other side almost 20 years ago.

      Interesting to note the variation in procedure regarding the cremaster and sutures…that is something we have talked about a lot here, especially the latter.

      With the sutures, did they say if they have shifted to exclusively using prolene now? Is it simply the surgeon’s choice? Or something the patient can request? Maybe all new surgeons can/must use prolene, but the older ones still use steel? If it is a complete shift, that would be a *very* new development (certainly within the past 1-2 years, AFAIK).

      I also wonder what data or other motivation has informed their decision to deviate from always resecting the cremaster…and how they make that decision for each surgery (indirect vs. direct? other hernia or patient characteristics? surgeon preference? patient request?).

      It does sound like you had a rather unusual short-term post-op experience. I do recall a fair bit of variation when I was there. The first time, one other guy was also my age (18/19) and he was on a stationary bike the next day, while a couple of other patients (much older) struggled to walk to the dining room and skipped ‘exercises’. The vast majority of us were in between…no issues walking slowly, but not exactly motivated to hop on the bike right away either. One of the older guys had a notably rougher time.

      Your experience of the cohort model being problematic during recovery is notable and not something I had previously considered. I experienced it as a reassuring ‘we are all in this together’ type of thing, both before and after surgery…but my short-term recovery also aligned with that of most others, while yours negatively deviated from them. That is something that warrants more study and there should be additional supports in place to not only aid in the recovery itself, but also to address the potential *additional* anxiety from seeing others fare better.

      I would like to see the facility upgraded…sounds like not a lot has changed with the ORs and the rest of it looked much the same when I visited around this time last year.

      The patient experience is very important, but the end result is ultimately what matters most, so I hope you will continue to post updates throughout your recovery and in the months that follow. Going forward, I hope all goes smoothly and you end up with a problem-free, enduring repair.

    • #33170
      William Bryant
      Participant

      Thanks Watchful… But I can’t see the reasons for your choosing Shouldice below or under. I was hoping to see this..

      I have read others saying the pain during recovery was the same as hernia pain prior to surgery.

    • #33172
      Watchful
      Participant

      Chuck,

      Not sure the Shouldice Hospital would be an option for you since you don’t have a visible or palpable bump. As far as I know, they don’t operate on such cases, or at least they didn’t in the past. Things have been changing there, so who knows – you would need to contact them if you wanted to explore that.

      You can ask for a specific surgeon, and they try to accommodate that.

      I don’t agree that it’s a “very poor choice”. They actually do very well with it over there. People were mostly doing quite well after the surgery, and I talked to a number of people who had one side done in the past, had perfect results, and came back for the other side. My case has not been so good so far, but it wasn’t typical.

      I think there’s a fundamental issue with not tailoring the solution to the patient. At the Shouldice Hospital, there are very rare cases where they use mesh. They do that when your tissues are of very poor quality. Other than that, they just do Shouldice. If you’re overweight, they’ll reject you, but if not, you’re fine for Shouldice.

      The problem is that there are cases where performing this procedure is difficult because of the specific anatomy and nature of the hernia. Some surgeons would realize that based on an ultrasound or maybe during surgery, and decide to use mesh in such a case, or maybe some other tissue repair like a Desarda. Based on what I know now about the details of my case, I think I would have ended up with a mesh if I had gone to one of the Germans who do Shouldice as well as mesh. I don’t know if that would have been a better outcome or not, but in some cases mesh can be superior to forcing a Shouldice, Kang, or some other tissue repair.

      I described in previous threads my reasons for not choosing Kang. It’s mostly about the lack of data, and concern about potentially higher recurrence rates. Also, my hernia was not run-of-the-mill. It was a large indirect with a scrotal component. I wanted to “play it safe” with an established well-proven procedure with a long history. I’m not sure how well the Kang technique for indirect hernias works with a hernia like I had. It may be fine – I just thought it was too much of an unknown. As it turns out, even repairing it with Shouldice has been difficult.

    • #33173
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thanks Watchful…I am sad for you because you really did your DD…its really troubling that these silly hernias can be life ending. If idiot doctors would warn us about the difficulty in fixing them when they examine us…i would have paid attention. Why did you wait so long to fix yours? This was a major mistake that i made in part relying on idiot doctors who told me watchful waiting was an option…now i know that fixing these right away makes more sense…because they are so much easier to fix. I still think Kang is the best….for one thing you know you are getting Kang for sure…and he has been involved in nearly 20,000 surgeries…he has seen it all…who knows what you are getting at shouldice…its criminal that the information is so difficult to extract from that facility. Why wouldnt they fix a direct hernia if there was no bulge? I hope you continue to improve watchful…i think these things can take a long time to heal

    • #33175
      Watchful
      Participant

      Thanks, Chuck. I’m optimistic since there has been a significant improvement since the surgery. I just hope it continues improving all the way to complete resolution, and I don’t get stuck with chronic pain. This stuff is really scary.

      I had my hernia since birth, and it got worse over the years. The right time to fix it was when I was a baby. It’s a trivial surgery at that point. My parents weren’t thinking rationally about it, and didn’t do it.

      The hernia was bothering me only occasionally, so I didn’t feel compelled to do the surgery. I did notice that it was growing in recent years, and that should have prompted me to do something about it, but I was too busy with other things, and didn’t feel like doing surgery on something that wasn’t bothering me all that much. It started bothering me much more frequently a bit over a year ago, but I took my time researching what to do because I found out that deciding on how to treat it isn’t so simple.

      I’m not sure I would have been able to pull the trigger before it started bothering me more, and before I noticed that intestine was going in there, and that the hernia was reaching into the scrotum. As we all know, the risk of complications from inguinal hernia surgery is far from insignificant, so who wants to take that risk on something that isn’t all that bothersome? The risk of incarceration and strangulation is known to be quite small. It’s a tough dilemma, but, yes, for those who want tissue repair, I think there’s a good argument for fixing it sooner rather than later. I wasn’t aware of any of that at the time. There’s probably not as much urgency with mesh.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Watchful.
    • #33177
      Watchful
      Participant

      Mark T,

      I think there’s a good chance that I will still end up with a problem-free and pain-free repair. I’m optimistic, but not certain. I’ll keep reporting on how it goes. Thanks for your message.

    • #33178
      William Bryant
      Participant

      Hello Watchful… I can see the reasons now, in your reply to Chuck.

      It doesn’t sound like you are many days after surgery yet so give it time. I’ve read quite a few people who have had tissue repair with swelling and pain for months but it all subsides. Hopefully yours will.

      Did you choose your surgeon by the way?

    • #33188
      Watchful
      Participant

      Thanks, William. I will indeed give it time before getting more concerned. I think my pain (both initially and what’s lingering) is outside the realm of what is common for this procedure, but I don’t know that it’s so abnormal that I should be very concerned at this point. It’s too bad that the crew over there (doctors, nurses) weren’t more reassuring. I think the big improvement so far is a very good sign, and I hope it will continue, but I live in uncertainty and I’m not back to normal, a situation which may persist for a while. My symptoms right now are still worse than what they were when I had the hernia, so it’s hard to be excited so far.

      Yes, I chose my surgeon – this wasn’t a problem actually.

    • #33190
      William Bryant
      Participant

      Hello again Watchful, I remember reading someone else who said their pain was worse after, initially and for some weeks, I think that was a Desarda repair (less invasive too I think) but all was well eventually so fingers crossed.

      Alan, who posts here and went to Dr Kang did say he had pain after for a few days or a week, I’m think that’s what he posted, I think that’s calmed or calming down too. I’m hoping Alan will post again.

      Appreciate yours and his, and everyone else’s updates as that’s all we really have to go on.

    • #33193
      Alan
      Participant

      Once the local wore off I was in a lot of pain, I’ve never had any surgery before so can’t compare but it was an 8\10 for me the first night (I refused a pain killer injection shortly after thinking I was ok), second day\night there was no pain at all when in bed.

      My pain is significantly better now, I’ve been moving about the house fairly easily and can stand upright without pain. I do have pain on the right side when standing for more than a few minutes which I’m hoping will improve – it’s still very swollen down there.

      I had two direct and an indirect so Dr Kang said the pain was expected (Apparently direct hernias cause more pain than indirect when repaired).

      I was the only patient that seemed to be in pain, everyone else was wondering about hours after surgery (some very elderly gentlemen with low mobility). A few left the same day and a few like me stayed overnight. I needed a wheelchair to get to the reception and crutches to get back to the hotel.

    • #33194
      William Bryant
      Participant

      Thanks Alan. I appreciate the update, I’m sure Watchful will too… Hope it gets better.

    • #33195
      William Bryant
      Participant

      Can I also ask Alan, if you don’t mind, are you in UK, like myself? How much do you estimate the total cost, if that’s not personal!

      • #33210
        Alan
        Participant

        It was $3k (bilateral) for the surgery, flight was £800 and the hotel was about the same (2 weeks).

    • #33196
      Watchful
      Participant

      Alan, the pain you mention when standing up for more than a few minutes is very familiar, and also your experience with being the only patient around with this pain.

      I also still have that problem, although much improved compared to what it was initially. It’s interesting that Dr. Kang said that your pain is expected. Did he explain what causes it specifically? My surgeon said my pain was unheard of and was thinking about issues with the surgery (like nerve impingement) which seriously freaked me out, and this still worries me.

      If I was told this is rare, but known and goes away eventually, I wouldn’t be so worried. I hope it’s just caused by swelling which is pressing on something, and this will go away when the swelling goes away, or maybe caused by some other tissue damage from dissection and stitching that will heal completely with time. These tissue repairs are certainly not as benign as I thought they were, but the alternatives don’t seem to be great either.

    • #33197
      ajm222
      Participant

      Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

      My initial thoughts, for whatever they are worth:

      I have noticed recently that when I am focused on my issues, the pain and discomfort goes up significantly, to the point of sometimes being debilitating. When I relax about it, it almost vanishes. I will often get stressed about lingering issues and they will get worse and worse, and then I will make an appt with my surgeon and talk over surgical options, and my hope for the future increases with a game plan, and then the pain ‘magically’ goes down to almost nothing.

      Point being, I do tend to believe in many cases there is a very cerebral component to the pain and discomfort. Recent science suggests this isn’t at all a new or fringe idea. Anyway, I am wondering if anticipatory anxiety, and being in a situation where you know almost TOO much, has had an impact on your level of pain. Some surgeons even suggest cognitive therapy or medication prior to surgery to improve outcomes.

      I had an experience when younger where I had two surgeries. Didn’t feel like I healed from the first one. Then the second didn’t seem like it was healing either. Lots of issues. Freaked out, had a breakdown, got on an SSRI, and finally fully healed within a month. The meds were the difference maker. My brain just needed a break from the obsession. My mind had gotten stuck and physically I was healing but mentally I was not.

      So I would recommend trying your best to do some positive visualization and relaxation tricks just to keep your spirits up, and just tell yourself daily you are going to heal up perfectly fine. Unless something bad happens that clearly needs medical intervention, give yourself lots of time to get better and try not to stress too much about it. It also just takes a long time for some folks to heal from surgery. As long as there are regular improvements from week to week, you should be good. The body is amazing with it’s ability to heal. But we can hamper this by focusing too much on it and thinking about the pain. That keeps the body from trimming those neurons and delays it from turning off the pain signals as you heal by reinforcing those pain pathways that really aren’t serving a purpose any longer.

      Lastly, I wonder, physically, if having a hernia for that long may just mean it’s going to take you a bit longer to heal and feel back to normal. Most people get a hernia and have it repaired fairly quickly and don’t wait years or decades. And they don’t have a hernia while crossing from child to adult. No reason to think that would prevent you from healing, but it may explain some of the extra pain and healing time needed in your particular case. Usually after about a year most people find the vast majority of twinges and discomforts have finally stopped being noticeable. Ultimately sounds like you’re going to be just fine.

      Just some thoughts. Thanks again for sharing this experience. Very interesting.

      I am possibly having a procedure myself in February to remove a lipoma and tighten up the inguinal area because I have a small bulge after removal that is apparently technically not a full hernia but probably is some extra fatty tissue pressing on some weak areas that exist possibly because of the mesh removal. I think it may be the source of some lingering pains and discomfort and the plan is to do a more minor repair with some stitches (not a full Shouldice-type repair). Hoping it goes well. But I also have some concerns as I am obsessive and a hypochondriac and I know I am my own worst enemy when it comes to healing. I’d leave it alone but I feel it’s an issue and I am finally ready to deal with it after my last surgery two years ago.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by ajm222.
    • #33199
      Watchful
      Participant

      Thanks for your thoughts, ajm222. I definitely agree with your points about the importance of positive thinking and optimism in healing. Good luck with your procedure if you decide to go ahead with it.

    • #33200
      Watchful
      Participant

      I just read Alan’s thread about his surgery with Dr. Kang. Very similar positional-dependent pain symptoms after surgery to what I experienced at Shouldice.

      One difference in the experience is that Dr. Kang told Alan that it’s normal, while my surgeon thought it wasn’t, and that something bad happened.

      Threads like these are very important because surgeons don’t provide enough information about the true range of “normal” symptoms that can be experienced after surgery, and what helps with those symptoms. Maybe they don’t want to scare people, or maybe they don’t even know.

      I’ll keep posting about how this develops, and I hope Alan does as well. A natural question is what the healing process looks like in such relatively bad cases of post-surgery pain, and whether (heaven forbid) chronic pain becomes an issue.

    • #33201
      Good intentions
      Participant

      I don’t want to minimize your concerns or the problems you’re having. But from a scientific perspective you are an outlier, and pretty far out, I think. This would be important for the surgeon to consider, before surgery and especially after surgery, if he/she is planning a second operation. Ideally, they would consult with a more experienced surgeon who has seen similar cases. Might be hard to find though.

      It’s reasonable to assume that your body had completely adapted to living with the hernia. Growing up from a baby, through puberty, and in to adulthood. It follows, I think, that it will take quite a while to adapt to removal of the hernia. The inguinal canal and the internal ring are in a completely new environment. Tissue that used to be in contact with intestine is now in contact with tissue it’s never seen before. The spermatic cord is especially sensitive, as I understand things. My mesh implant surgeon joked about an “angry spermatic cord” when I presented with problems. It wasn’t funny, of course.

      Just offering a more cautious view. The normal decisions for pain after a Shouldice repair might not apply to you. Most surgeons will start from what works for the bulk of Shouldice patients. But your case is unique.

      “I had my hernia since birth, and it got worse over the years. The right time to fix it was when I was a baby.”

      “Also, my hernia was not run-of-the-mill. It was a large indirect with a scrotal component.”

    • #33202
      Watchful
      Participant

      GI,

      Most indirect hernias are a result of a congenital defect (persistent processus vaginalis), and long-standing indirect hernias are common. They see large long-standing indirect hernias at Shouldice regularly – I was told they operate on such hernias every week.

      I don’t think the different environment in the inguinal canal is an issue. Yes, there was a hernia sac there for a long time, and now there isn’t, but that’s par for the course with indirect hernia repair. None of the experts I talked to considered that to be a potential issue.

      One problematic aspect was just the way my anatomy was laid out which made doing a Shouldice repair more difficult, but still possible. On top of that, the hernia defect was large, and the tissue quality was decent, but not great. I was pretty far from an ideal candidate for Shouldice, but this is not something that I could tell in advance. The ultrasound that I had gave an incorrect picture. The skill for doing it correctly for an inguinal hernia doesn’t seem to exist in the US (or Canada), and that’s the reason hernia surgeons find it to be useless. I hear they do a much better job of that in Germany, but we’re talking about hernia surgeons who do it themselves after developing specialized expertise.

      Anyway, that’s the reason I mentioned that tailoring the repair is important. I think surgeons who do both Shouldice and mesh would have made the intraoperative (or maybe even preoperative) decision to use mesh in my case. I’m not saying that the fact that it was a more challenging repair explains my pain, but it might. On the other hand, I could have ended up with mesh-related trouble, so who knows.

      Having said all that, look at Alan’s case of pain after his Kang repair. Different case, different tissue repair procedure, similar issues after surgery.

      We’ll see what happens. Things may settle down, and I may end up being a happy camper with no pain, no recurrence, and no mesh. If anyone is curious about how I would do it with the benefit of hindsight, ask me in a few months.

    • #33203
      pinto
      Participant

      Congratulations on taking the plunge. You knew you were at the endpoint and you had to jump out of the plane. You survived the jump. Any surgery is risky. At this point the important thing is to realize you did your very best. All along the way decision points were calculations. Sometimes though by hindsight either way fails if without a win. In the recent WS game, a baseball manager gambled that his mainstay pitcher should be relieved out the trouble he was in. Unfortunately they lost and the manager roasted ever since. If they won, however, he would be the toast of the town. I marvel how even the most experienced sports casters haven’t fully understood this metric.

      In the moment, outsiders cannot grasp the full measure what that manager had to process–and indeed processed–in weighing the best step to take. You are that manager but fortunately the game result is yet written. You made a decision that best fits as you saw it; others go on with less data. What many of us have yet fully grasped is the incredible healing power of the human body. I still ponder the exquisite libido: The moment of complete bliss brings wonder if it ever can return–if indeed the need would even come again. Ah, but it does, again and again. Amazing life force.

      However the darkest moment invites doubt about the dawn return. Many stories at HT illustrate that but many also show hope, resolve and healing. It may take time but the life force will see you through, maybe even in record time with your particular case. The return of pain is scary but maybe a sign the life force is healing. Not all pain is bad. Some pain is necessary to send us on our way to health. I hope your pain subsides in due time and you can go well on your way. I myself would take solace in the fact that I were not the poor fellow in the Russian prison snubbed by Biden who must now be in immense despair after four years of imprisonment. You have some medical heavyweights who I’m sure will see you through. Good luck my friend.

    • #33208
      Chuck
      Participant

      Watchful…i think AJM is on point –there is a huge psych component to this. It seems like yourself AJM and me…all looked into this ad nauseum and we are all still dealing with issues, My bone head friends who went to the doc at the local kaiser who just stuck mesh in them are all doing just fine. My friend nick advised me to stay off hernia talk and i think i will do that for awhwile….in particular he said to avoid Good Intentions…and i wholeheartedly agree….not only is this guy not helpful at all—which is sad because he had my exact experience…but he is extremely negative about surgery outcomes—telling you to expect more problems is exactly what you dont need to hear…screw him! He deterred me from removal by implying i would get worse…with all his burned battlefield analogies..and flat out refused to help me because he didnt like my personality. Anyone going through this hernia nightmare should be supported by their brothers. For the record Dr B laughed off the burned battlefield nonsense and reassured me that the main issue was a return of the direct hernia…hang in there W and ignore GI—why dont you just go away GI your mesh is gone…we dont need anymore of your negative crapola….

    • #33215
      Watchful
      Participant

      Chuck,

      I’m too close to the surgery to know if I’ll be dealing with any lingering issues or not. I need to see where I am when a reasonable healing period is done. I’m not where I expected to be in terms of recovery at this point, but healing is still going on, and things should get better.

      The observation that my case was a fairly poor fit for a Shouldice procedure isn’t coming from me or from my research. It came from my surgeon. This doesn’t mean that I won’t have a good outcome, but it resulted in a challenging surgery which is something that one should really try to avoid.

      There’s a problem with going to places that use a single procedure such as the Shouldice Hospital, Dr. Kang, and Dr. Tomas. The problem is that you act as your own doctor in the sense that you pick the treatment, and you may pick wrong for your particular case. I think for non-trivial cases, it’s best to go to someone who is good with a number of procedures (tissue repair as well as mesh), and can make an informed decision before or during surgery. Too bad there are only very few such surgeons.

    • #33216
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thanks Watchful…I have the utmost respect for you because you really dug in on this and didnt get confused like i did. I worried about the surgical pain, trauma and scarring from tissue repairs and the likelihood they wouldnt last. You saw through that and made the best choice you could…if you could do things over would you change anything? I know i dont want any plastic inside of me….so that doesnt leave me with a lot of options for reherniation. I just think Kang has the most experience in the world…he knows all the tissue techniques and their pitfalls. He has changed is technique over and over in response to what he has learned…to me he just seems like far and away the best option. Shouldice wasnt an option for me because they were insisting on the death shot…i considered peterson and tomas…peterson was a flat out ass during the consult. I asked several surgeons about desarda and they said it was not a good technique…this was before i understood that mesh whore doctors will always denigrate any tissue repairs. I guess i got caught up in the idea that since something is most commonly used…ie mesh surgery…it must be safe and time tested….ie there must be a reason why it is the most commonly used technique. Even now after reading all your great analysis…I wonder what to do. I still have pain on the right side that suggests my direct hernia has returned. Stephen kwon says Dr Kang can get to the bottom of it…with hands on diagnosis…ultrasound and mri if needed…though he says its never needed. Kang says shouldice is just too darn invasive…i thought you had come to that conclusion too…and that its a technique with too great a risk for long term chronic pain. Kang says he never sees pain in his practice. He seems like an honest fellow and i am sure i would have avoided all my problems had i gone to see him weeks after i sustained my indirect hernia…instead i watchful waited tried to heal it naturally and it got large and sank towards my testicle…in short i made every mistake in the book…and likely ruined my whole life. Hernia surgery was sold as routine..out patient nothing to worry about….it is anything but as we all now know

    • #33218
      Watchful
      Participant

      Chuck,

      Would I do it differently? I can’t answer that yet. I really have to wait for further recovery. If I absolutely had to answer that question now, then my answer would be that I would pick a different way of fixing it because of the nature of my particular case. This wasn’t known all that well at the time I made the decision, though.

      If I were in your situation, I would first try to get the best diagnosis, and then decide if and how to do surgery. Maybe go to Dr. Krpata or Dr. Towfigh for diagnosis. Dr. Kang might be good for that too, but if he doesn’t find a hernia, where does that leave you? Maybe others could diagnose what’s causing the pain even in that case.

      I don’t think you really made a mistake with your choice of procedure. Maybe the choice of surgeon – I don’t know. The vast majority do fine with lap mesh and even open mesh as you mentioned.

      Dr. Kang is a reasonable choice if your case is a good fit for his procedure, and it may very well be. Also, he’s a very experienced surgeon. The part I don’t quite see is why you put what he does in a different category than other tissue repairs. His technique for direct hernias is a variation on Shouldice/Bassini as I understand it. Not quite as extensive, but similar in principle. It’s not exempt from recurrence or from pain. Have you read Alan’s account of his recent surgery with him? Very similar to what happened to me at Shouldice in terms of the pain.

    • #33219
      Stephen
      Participant

      Hi guys, Chuck said, “Stephen kwon says Dr Kang can get to the bottom of it…with hands on diagnosis…ultrasound and mri if needed…though he says its never needed.”
      I just simply want to make it clear. Dr. Kang diagnoses always with his ‘dynamic sono (ultra-sound).’ He says MRI is not necessary. That’s it. I really thank Chuck for his precious statement all the time.

    • #33220
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thanks watchful…i wish we had been searching for answers at the same time…I think putting our heads together we might have figured it out. My analysis came down to the fact that it appeared the risk of chronic pain from open surgery was greater than that for lap…and that made sense intuitively given all the cutting. Particularly in my case where there was a good chance i had hernias on both sides. Voellers article seemed to say the risk of chronic pain from lap mesh was the lowest. Towfigh and Yunis interview confirmed this. And in my case my surgery involved no scarring—the butcher carvajal did all the work through the navel… and there was very little post surgery pain….so i had those two advantages right out of the gate over open no mesh repair….then there was a serious question about whether a tissue repair was more durable than mesh…every doctor i saw said the tissue repairs were more likey to fail voeller made it sound like after 5 years tissue repairs just fell apart…Docs also rolled their eyes when i mentioned shouldice….one saying he had seen several patients with chronic pain from that clinic—that could very well have been a lie…but i was stupid back then. I also talked to shouldice and desarda patients who were still having pain more than a year after the surgery…there was a journal of one shouldice patient complaining of pain 3 years after the surgery…AS william bryant is fond of saying …we are faced with impossible choices. I have noticed that few kang patients ever complain of longterm pain….maybe thats because we dont see many kang patients…but dr kang himself says he hasnt seen chronic pain…maybe i am crazy but dr kang is known to be a committed christian and an elder in his church…he seems more trustworthy than the US vipers i surveyed…he really seems to care about his patients…cant say that about grishkan or peterson…they could care less. What surprises me is that folks who do the least research seem to turn out the best —i have a dozen friends who did nothing more than go to their primary…get referred to some local doc “in their plan”…and they all got mesh shoved in by general surgeons and had no problem at all. We both did a ton of research….went to experts and got hosed….or at least i did. All i know is if i have to do more surgery…i am going to see Dr Kang. But would love to hear any opinions that you have.

    • #33221
      Watchful
      Participant

      Chuck,

      Like I mentioned, I would think about it in two steps. The first is getting an accurate diagnosis, and the second is potential surgery. If you’re pretty sure it’s a hernia, I think it’s reasonable to go to Dr. Kang to be diagnosed and possibly treated. You have to decide based on what’s actually going on in there, and you don’t really know yet. Maybe you can have it looked at in the US first (Dr. Krpata, Dr. Towfigh) before going all the way to Korea. If nothing else, it will give you another opinion about what you have and how to treat it.

      What does Dr. B. think? How bad is your pain, and when does it happen?

      After extensive digging on the Internet and asking a bunch of people, I also found a surprising number of reports of short term as well as chronic pain after Shouldice Hospital repairs. The thing is that you can also find such reports after Lichtenstein as well as TEP. The conventional wisdom is that TEP is the least problematic in this regard.

      Who knows what the real numbers are, though. Shouldice sometimes claims 1%, sometimes 2%, and there was even a mention of 5% on that interview with Dr. Towfigh. It’s definitely an issue. They are doing a multi-year study on that, but I don’t know how many patients bother with it because the questionnaires are lengthy and time consuming to fill out. German surgeons sometimes say 0% chronic pain with Shouldice, and sometimes they say 1%-3%. Basically, who the heck knows, but the numbers I’ve seen for mesh are worse. I really don’t think there are reliable numbers for any of these.

      There’s also the question of how to treat chronic pain. There are some methods to treat it on mesh repairs (including removal). Not sure about Shouldice.

      I know what you’re saying regarding the success of the local general surgeons. I observed the same thing. I have a couple in my area who have many stellar reviews. I actually consulted with one of them. He told me that he always cuts the ilioinguinal nerve, and that pretty much turned me off. However, he has many great reviews. He suffered from chronic pain himself after a Lichtenstein procedure, and required a nurectomy.

      Honestly, much of it is luck. You need to pick the best surgeon you can, but it’s still a Russian roulette. Different people react differently to the same exact things, there are anatomical variations (such as with nerve locations), surgeons can be tired and pressed for time, etc.

      I think you just got unlucky, and you shouldn’t be hard on yourself. You actually made the rational choice. I’m the one who went out on a limb more by going to Shouldice, and we’ll see how that turns out in the long run, but so far it has not been so good as I mentioned above.

    • #33241
      Chuck
      Participant

      I dont think i made the right choice at all…i should have started with the premise that plastic does not belong in the body. Its just too dangerous…can move degrade get infected. After that..it would have been tough because the stuff on kang was just becoming known. You at one point were strongly considering Kang…saying his technique seemed the least bad…I got thrown off by the likelihood of two hernias and doctors telling me they would do it lap because of the tissue trauma associated with bilateral…it was an impossible choice i agree. The real idea would have been to have been educated about hernias…and learned to avoid them like the plague. I lifted weights for 30 years. in retrospect really stupid. Would really love to hear any thoughts you have on what you would have done in retropect. I suppose shouldice was the safe choice…i just didnt like that it was hard to know the good surgeons there and i didnt realize steel wasnt required. Desarda might have been a good choice too…dont see many reports of chronic pain for that. Now i am looking at chronic pain for life…its all very sad

    • #33243
      Watchnwaitin
      Participant

      @Watchful,

      1) How did you go about picking your surgeon? I don’t see any info on the surgeons at Shouldice Hospital on the website.

      2) Is there still a c19 vacs policy there for a patient or their spouse or is that gone now?

      Hope your post op recovery is going well.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Watchnwaitin.
    • #33245
      Watchful
      Participant

      Watchnwaitin,

      You can pick based on names you see in reviews. Tell the patient coordinator that you want a specific surgeon.

      There is no vaccine requirement. By the way, visitors are still not allowed.

    • #33246
      Watchful
      Participant

      Chuck,

      I don’t know what weights you were lifting, but I agree that lifting heavy weights should be avoided. Hernia probably isn’t actually the most common damage this causes. I think spine damage is the big one to worry about with lifting.

      My understanding is that most inguinal hernias are unavoidable. Indirect hernias are almost always caused by a congenital defect, and direct hernias are caused by tissue weakness.

      In retrospect, my parents should have taken me to surgery as an infant because my hernia would have been trivial to fix back then. As an adult, surgery becomes a lot more questionable because the repair isn’t trivial, it can easily be worse than the disease, and the earlier you have the surgery done, the larger the chunk of your life that may be impacted by bad outcomes such as chronic pain. The caveat here is that if you want tissue repair, you may want to pull the trigger on surgery as soon as you notice that the hernia is progressing and becoming worse.

      You don’t know how bilateral tissue repair would have turned out in your case. Also, there was no way for you to know that you would end up being one of the few percent with issues after TEP. You made a rational and informed choice about the procedure, and you took your time with the decision. You could have ended up being one of the few percent with issues after tissue repair, and regretted not getting mesh.

      I prefer tissue repair to mesh, but I’m not an absolutist about it, and I know that bad outcomes are possible with both. Also, in some cases tissue repair may be a better fit, and in others mesh may be better. One thing I realized late is that hernia repair really should be tailored. For example, it turned out that I was not a good fit for a Shouldice repair, but it was done anyway because of where I went to have it done. That’s not good.

      My advice to those who want tissue repair is to first figure out if they have an “easy” case or not. If it’s a large, long-lasting hernia, be careful. Go to one of the few surgeons who do both tissue repair and mesh, and let them decide what is best either before or during surgery. Such surgeons include Dr. Yunis, Dr. Towfigh, and a few German surgeons. Possibly also Dr. Reinhorn.

    • #33277
      Chuck
      Participant

      WAtchful –as usual thanks for your thoughtful reply. I hope you are getting better. You are one of the smartest guys on this page and you put in an enormous amount of research…what did you miss that caused you to make the wrong decision? its so terrifying that there seem to be no answers here. I spoke with Yunis after my surgery..very nice guy but i was not impressed honestly. He doesnt have a ton of tissue experience. He keeps saying i have been to shouldice …so what? He also said the risks of lap mesh were tiny—now what i know about lap mesh that is patently false…it is a very dangerous procedure using a huge amount of plastic. I have met many many guys who have been ruined by this surgery. Fortunately i got all the plastic out. But am having the same pain on the right that i had presurgery so suspect the allegedly small direct hernia has returned there. I want to go to kang as he has impressed me the most….but would you say another doctor like doctor Towfigh would be more appropriate. I will likely consult her before going to korea. But Stephen told me direct hernias dont have to bulge…and said confidently that Kang could diagnose it with ultra sound and fix it. Any tips you have appreciated…i respect you very much

    • #33278
      Chuck
      Participant

      And if you would ever be willing to chat on the phone…i would be happy to pay pal you…honestly…i have been to surgeons who were not as knowledgeable as you Thanks

    • #33280
      Watchful
      Participant

      Hi Chuck,

      My case was very different from yours. I had a large indirect hernia with a large defect, and a large hernia sack reaching down into the scrotum. In your case currently, you may or may not have a small direct hernia recurrence.

      Like I said before, you need a diagnosis first. I don’t know for sure, but I get the impression that Dr. Towfigh is good at diagnosing non-obvious hernias, and other causes of groin pain. Not sure who else in the US. Maybe Dr. Krpata, and Dr. Chen. In Germany, there are a number of surgeons who are very skilled with ultrasound (such as Dr. Conze), but I think there are occult hernias that even that can’t show, and maybe other types of imaging help with those.

      As to how to fix the hernia if it’s there, maybe put off that decision until you find out what’s going on exactly.

      I don’t know how frequent and how bad your pain is. If it’s not something that bothers you too much, I personally wouldn’t do anything about it quite frankly. Hernia surgery can cause a lot of trouble as you well know. Also, watch out for shooting-in-the-dark type surgeries (exploratory, random nurectomies) which can be harmful.

    • #33283
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thx watchful. My case is not that different on the left side I had a large indirect that was heading into the scrotum. It started small and I waited 4 years to fix it. Big mistake. So far it hasn’t recurred. But the pain on the right is daily. The exact type of pain I had pre mesh surgery. Only worse. So unless carvajal was a total liar a good possibility of course the hernia has returned. In retrospect how would you have fixed your hernia. I just can’t believe how complicated this is. Most guys get it fixed and weeks later they are fine. I think I will be dealing with this for life. Guessing it’s a no on the phone consult? Not sure why everyone here is so shy of the phone. We all have a lot of info to help each other. Merry Christmas

    • #33285
      Watchful
      Participant

      Merry Christmas, Chuck.

      It’s true that most don’t have significant issues after inguinal hernia repair, but many do based on the studies that I’ve seen. Looks like well over 10% have at least some long-term pain, discomfort, numbness, paresthesias, etc.

      I agree that a hernia that’s too bothersome or that’s increasing in size should be treated, but at this point you don’t even know for sure that you have a hernia, and you have no bulge. I also get pain after certain activities which feels like hernia pain after my Shouldice procedure, but I don’t suspect a recurrence. The same type of pain can be caused by a hernia and by groin surgery.

      You have to focus on what you have now, not what you had before. You can’t go back in time and change how you treated it. Also, you don’t know how alternative approaches would have turned out – there’s really no point in torturing yourself about your past decision.

      If your current pain is bothering you too much, my advice would be to try to get it diagnosed by the best specialist you can find as mentioned above. Don’t put the cart before the horse. What’s your alternative? Would you really want another hernia surgery done without even knowing that you have a hernia? You may end up with the same pain plus complications from another surgery. See what you learn from diagnosis, and then decide on next steps.

    • #33289
      Chuck
      Participant

      Thanks Watchful…always appreciate your thoughts. I didnt have a bulge the first time when Carvajal…without any imaging at all diagnosed a small hernia. The op report said it was a small direct hernia. The pain on that side went away after the mesh was placed but has now returned with removal. So I suspect a return of the hernia. All the US experts that you cited are not nice people. They charge exorbitant fees —misrepresent things. At least Dr Twofigh seems to show some genuine concern—krpata is a cold uncaring Ahhole—i have heard the same about Chen…the Germans i dont know about. But Kang always comes across as humble and caring…but he is also very experienced and confident. He has seen it all. I have never hear anything bad about Kang at all…most recover quickly and without any longterm pain. Kang himself has said he has never seen chronic pain….my instinct says to go see him…its just sad he is in korea.

    • #33290
      Watchful
      Participant

      You can look up reviews for the Germans on jameda, and there are some on Google as well. The problem with jameda is that they make it hard to post bad reviews, so keep in mind that you’re probably not seeing the whole picture. However, their top hernia surgeons do have many excellent and detailed reviews, and they are pleasant people. I talked to a few of them, and almost went there.

      Dr. Kang may be a good choice. There’s less information available out there from patients since he’s in Korea.

      How did Carvajal diagnose your direct hernia before surgery? Was he able to palpate it?

    • #33306
      MarkT
      Participant

      Chuck, I agree 100% with Watchful…don’t put the cart before the horse…diagnosis is the priority.

      A hernia can still be palpable if there is no visible bulge…so a physical exam is the first step. If you already had a physical exam that did not find anything, then imaging is the way to go.

      Get a dynamic MRI done. It is likely your best option to nail down a diagnosis (whether it is a hernia or something else) which will then inform a course of action.

      Ruminating about the past, talking to someone on the phone, contemplating which surgeon to see if you have a hernia recurrence…none of that gives you good information about what you should do next. Get a diagnosis, then go from there.

    • #33307
      Stephen
      Participant

      Hi Chuck, I require one correction from your statement Reply#33277 made on 12/24/2022 at 4:08pm. You wrote, “Stephen told me direct hernias don’t have to bulge…”
      It was my mistake to explain so simply.
      To get rid of any misunderstanding, I want to say, “There always is bulging in hernia, but in the biggining stage because it is so small it may not be noticeable. Therefore, to find out whether there is hernia or not, it must be diagnosed through dynamic sono/ ultrasound.”
      I always thank you for precious contribution.
      Happy New year!

    • #33308
      sensei_305
      Participant

      Just had my hernia mesh removed on left side Dr.Peter Billings here in Kirkland,WA. Same surgeon who did it for @good-intentions . We was supposed to remove both sides but looks like my left was very complex and had moved down to Testicle so no time to do right side. I plan on coming back and remove it within 6 months. I must say, great experience and highly recommend Dr.billings and the Evergreen Hospital.

    • #33311
      SN
      Participant

      sensei_305, do you know if Dr. Billing does non-mesh or tissue-based repairs for hernias? When looking up his information, I see that he specializes in weight loss specialties, so it was kind of odd seeing that he does hernia mesh removal as well.

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