[PeterC]

Actually to carry on from my previous response and the car example – its like your car engine caught fire and they take away the indicator that lets you know theres a fire/smoke in the engine and they tell you go back to driving it. which is even worse.

[PeterC]

@good-intentions When I consulted with Dr. Zoland a few weeks back he was very candid about the subject and basically told me that some of these surgeons are very eager to cut nerves but that even a nerve block is not the most accurate diagnostic tool and is so vague that it can be completely useless because at the end of the day – any pain you feel is transmitted through a nerve.

That doesn’t mean nerve injury and definitely doesn’t mean the nerve needs to be removed. Injecting the nerve blocks the receptors and pain input you would feel on the entire path of the nerve from the point of injection down – but how does that help you find out where exactly there is an injury or tissue that is aggravating said nerve? It doesn’t. So even if they do a nerve block and you get relief – that just means that the issue is somewhere along the path of the nerve. You’re not really closer to a resolution.

And he said a lot of these surgeons that allow themselves to perform these neurectomies so candidly do not care about the long-term well-being of their patients – don’t have that in mind. They choose to think ”there is pain, whats the fastest way to get rid of it” without acknowledging the consequences down the line for the person’s health and overall function.

Which to me is the most open/candid/honest thing any of these doctors has said so far. This whole focus on nerves can be real but its also the lazy man’s response to everything because they don’t want to go through the trouble of investigating it and quite frankly they don’t always understand the dynamic of the different forces the muscles in the groin produce. Its like your car engine starts smoking and you just take out the part that caught fire and tell the person to keep driving. Assuming the car even starts – how long do you think it can go without a critical part of the whole ensemble without having further failures and completely shutting down. You see these horror stories of people who went in with an injury and they come out of surgery with bilateral triple neurectomy and I could almost throw up about how disgusted I am at the thought of it. Its lazy mutilation camouflaged behind the ”medicine” umbrella – nothing less.

@rob-t-uk No problem mate. I’m currently in Canada so its a long shot for me to travel across the ocean to come consult but I’m seriously considering as I see no other options here in the states aside from Dr. Meyers. I heard good things about both Dr. Lloyd and Dr. Marsh – I would even consider consulting both if I were you.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  PeterC.

[PeterC]

Hey Rob

There is a guy on here from the UK as well that was diagnosed with just a small inguinal hernia and went to Dr. Muschaweck to ”get ahead of it” before it gets worse. He’s been communicating with me and has said that before that surgery it wasn’t even hurting him he was simply concerned about it growing and getting worse but he said he was otherwise at the peak of his form/fitness.

He says that ever since he got her surgery he lost complete function in his internal oblique/that side of his core and has been in chronic pain and dysfunction since. She performs a neurectomy during her procedure even if you have zero nerve pain as her standard procedure (which can be viewed in her presentation about it on Youtube) and obviously downplays the effects of it claiming the famous ”they’re just sensory nerves” most of these doctors do. When he went back to her to discuss about how completely dysfunctional he is as a result of her surgery – she said ”If I told patients of all the possible side-effects of my procedure nobody would get the surgery” – which to me is absolutely insane and criminal.

I would proceed with caution here. Her name is established and she will drown you out with ”I’ve never had this happen before I’ve done 100000 of these” crap if it ends up like that guy. He’s around on the facebook group ”sports hernia awareness & support” if you would like to talk to him about his experience.

If you google research people like Dr. Meyers (who has his share of bad reviews as well) – he does nearly all the NBA/NHL/MLB players with these groin injuries and he categorically refuses to cut nerves out, even if a previous mesh is scarred onto it he would rather leave a bit of mesh in/around than cut/damage the nerve. I think that says a lot in itself.

If you’re in the UK I would highly consider Dr. Lloyd and Dr. Simon Marsh. I’m a pro dancer who has had his groin destroyed by Dr. Brown in the States and I’m very highly considering going to consult with both of them. I don’t believe I’ve come across a single bad review or horror story from them – they seem like solid people who would try to help you out and that understand that the goal is to restore function – not drown out pain.

All the best.

[PeterC]

Not sure where her hernia is situated but I will say this – if she doesn’t have pain – don’t rush into surgery. These surgeons keep telling people that ”it cannot heal” and ”itll only get worse” to get you into surgery. Suddenly those people who only went preventively to get ahead of it like their surgeons suggested are stuck with severe dysfunction and/or pain.

I know of 2 people who had an actual hernia and they don’t anymore and they didn’t have surgery. Its not bulging anymore and they can’t feel it anymore.

Every surgeon I’ve talked to so far in my journey has lied to me and downplayed the effects of their procedures which were always worse than my initial reason to consult them to make a buck. I promise you its a better life to watch it and hold off vs. doing it because the doctor is underselling the severity of some of those operations and then ending up with chronic pain or muscular dysfunction.

Good luck with everything.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  PeterC.

[PeterC]

@inguinalpete

I think I’m the best example of how some of these doctors don’t care. Look at my case right. I’m still young, lifelong athlete. My tissues are healthy as hell. I’m vegan, I don’t smoke, I don’t drink. Never had a hernia bulge. All my nerves are intact aside from one small part of my right ilioinguinal that was cut at the external oblique level (above the internal oblique).

Why wouldn’t a doctor on here, from Dr. Towfigh to anyone else that want to be leaders in their fields, reach out to me and try to figure out whats wrong or why Dr. Brown’s surgery messed me up this bad? This should interest the hell out of them and could possibly provide them with a real life example to help them better with their next patients. Way more than any textbook or paper written in 2002. They get to see it in real-time. I have 4 years of MRIs to see the progression of injury. I’d be glad to extensively talk with a doctor and work together.

But they won’t do it. If I want to talk to Dr. Towfigh online, its 750$ USD. That’s 1000$ in local currency (Canada). The price of a laptop, 1-month rent for a decent master bedroom in L.A, etc etc. Money that I need to help a cousin back home with terminal cancer treatments that I simply cannot justify spending on a human being for an hour of their time virtually.

I thought about reaching out to her for example because at times I think she does mean well – but for the most part I’ve completely lost faith in doctors and just feel like they genuinely don’t care so I don’t even bother.

It’s quite a shame actually. So much good could be done through doctors that would show compassion – I don’t know how we got to a state where people are scared of doctors and have to sift through which doctor will mess you up the least or will genuinely care for you more than the paycheck.

[PeterC]

@inguinalpete

That’s insane. I’m genuinely sorry this happened to you.

I struggle with finding out whether these doctors know what they’re doing and just choose to ignore it knowing full well they’re about to permanently injure a patient – or if they’re genuinely so disconnected from reality that they just keep reciting the same recycled stats from 50 years old textbooks from studies on sample sizes inferior to 50 patients that fail to mention any side-effects. Just by browsing this website I can probably find 10-15 patients whose lives were totally ruined by Dr. Chen. Do you think he even acknowledges one of them or attempted to modify his procedures? Hell no. He ignores them and carries on – because god forbid he forgets his ego and actually realizes they’re humans with families, and real lives.

I also think a lot of these doctors genuinely don’t understand the relation of each muscle to one another. They think ”I see hole, I patch hole” ”I see pain, I cut into it”. When its not that simple. When the obliques and transverse are inhibited and fail to fire properly, the pelvic floor starts overworking and will start hurting. Does that mean cut into all of it? Absolutely not. There’s a causality here. The information and research is there. You just have to be willing to do the work as a doctor. All the physio in the world can’t help you if you’re sewn up all over the place. And every tissue you cut into is permanently weaker.
Studies have shown that the body struggles to send proper nervous input through scar tissue. Now imagine you have a bunch of muscles that get cut up, then they cut the nerves and then they suture them in a configuration they’re not supposed to be in. There is absolutely zero, I mean ZERO % chance the patient recovers from that.

Saying that someone ”got better” is so vague. Did the person fully get back to pre-injury levels in every aspect yes or no. If no – then it wasn’t a success. If the patient is even 10% worse, even if you fixed the hole or the original issue, then the surgery is a failure and should not be repeated. But they keep doing it.

In other words, you shouldn’t have to need surgery to recover from surgery. The same way you cannot take medication for something and have 3 new diseases as a side-effect of that medication. That’s the U.S Medical Model. Make sure they become lifelong patients. There is no money in healthy patients.

But then again if they were transparent, they would be out of a job because again not a single soul would accept these side-effects.

I just wish someone cared. Like actually cared and was passionate about their job to the point where they go and seek out the knowledge to know what the muscles do and how cutting too much will affect the patient beyond the original injury. I understand everyone is chasing capital but at the expense of what? Real lives being totally ruined.

[PeterC]

@dmgonisland – I’m glad I could help you formulate more questions for your upcoming procedures.

Do not hesitate to ask for every single step to be explained – and if at any point the doctor becomes condescending or annoyed that you would ask such technical questions – do not be intimidated into silence. From my experience they do this because they don’t know themselves the full extent of the aftermath of their procedure and you asking makes them uncomfortable so they hide it behind annoyance in a ”I’m the doctor you’re just a common patient you should trust me I shouldn’t have to answer to you” attitude.

But the truth is – its your body and surgery is often times permanently damaging. So it is absolutely in your right to ask that everything be explained down to the smallest cut. And if they refuse – simply find another doctor. There are some out there that actually care about your well-being.

And if somethings seems off – then it is off. I raised questions before my surgeries and I was assured of things and turns out that me – the athlete with 12 years of studying my body and how the muscles interact – was right. And its too late now.

Best of luck to you

[PeterC]

Also – just so we’re clear – I am at 5% of what I was before his surgery. This is not a ”slow recovery”. I never recovered from the day I left the surgical center. I cannot recover from this until someone goes in and puts the muscles back where they are supposed to be and I don’t even know if that’s possible. Every single doctor and physio agrees on this.

I am nearing 9 months of post-op. 9 months of not being able to go on a hike, a bike ride, even a moderately long walk. 9 months of not being able to work let alone do my actual job of a professional dancer and teacher.

I’m effectively disabled.

Please please please, do not go to Dr. Brown. I know the struggle is all these horror stories of people removing nerves, people putting mesh in etc. But I’d frankly be better off if I had a mesh on my inguinal canal right now. It would be less traumatic to go remove that and fix me than it is to fix me after Dr. Brown butchered me.

I sincerely hope nobody else has to find themselves in this situation ever again.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by  PeterC.

[PeterC]

When I went to see Dr. Brown – I was a functional athlete. I had chronic pain after activity but still had full abdominal strength

After Dr. Brown butchered me
I have – Bilateral spermatic cord sensitivity at all times
– Bilateral testicle pain
– Pain/discomfort breathing because he tied every abdominal layer together which damaged the structural integrity of my abdominal wall so on every expansion (breathing in) the different layers cannot properly expand causing pain and stiffness
– He cut my inguinal ligament which has lost all of its strength and
is absolutely key to a balanced and strong groin.
– My digestion is completely shit because again – your digestion depends
on your abdominal muscles to be functioning as intended in their original configuration (this is well researched, this is why Osteopathy and similar practices exist).
– My gait is completely messed up because again – groin muscles are all tied up
– This is slowly leading to hip and knee pain because altered traction of joints due to impairment of supporting soft tissues

So I walked in with very specific, minimal problems on a healthy athletic body with no body fat and I am now dealing with roughly 10 new issues that I shouldn’t have that are permanent. This should be criminal.

And for these doctors to dare say ”there’s a treatment for that” after they create these problems – are you insane?

I DIDN’T HAVE ANY of this. This is like walking to get a tire fixed and getting your car back with 3 windows cracked, a seat missing, and a suspension busted. Oh and instead of fixing the tire, they cut the rubber open tie it together in a knot and expect the wheel to be able to roll smoothly. It’s not possible.

”Oh don’t worry there’s a treatment for that”. So I need an even more invasive treatment for something you created.

I’m sorry but these are real people’s lives that are at stake. I will effectively never recover – for what, for money?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by  PeterC.

[PeterC]

I can’t find the edit button on the mobile version of these new forums but Id like to add – I understand in some cases of major nerve damage this procedure may be the only resort.

I’m talking about how this is has become a standard procedure – the first thing that was offered to me by a top surgeon whos the director of the board of surgeons in my city was the nerve removal and how hes done it to other athletes/olympians/hockey players – regardless of symptoms.

[PeterC]

quote Alephy:

Well I will not have a mesh for sure…I have urticaria and when that kicks in it is a REAL problem. I guess no surgeon would risk my life because of a reaction against the mesh (the ones I am supposed to see next month know that, and I will surely tell the one I am going to see next Wednesday). I am considering though the mesh that gets completely absorbed (so it’s gone after a while), although that one also can cause adhesions and possible problems?
In any case permanent/semi permanent mesh is not an option for me, everything else is, provided I can train as before (or close to as before)…
BTW did you have your mesh removed in the end? I guess for you the problem is even more serious as you depend on a truly high level functioning body!
What drives me crazy is that on the one hand there is this buzz of what incredible things medicine will accomplish in the near future, and on the other they cannot really fix a knee or an hernia…sounds like we can to the moon, but cannot feed everybody on the planet

I’m having surgery with Dr.Brown on Feb 7th to remove it yes. I’ve had a 2 cm tear on the opposite side for the whole 2 years as well so I’m just getting that side fixed (open – pure tissue) and the mesh removed/whatever else is there to fix on that side at the same time. I just got to a point where I can’t/don’t want to tolerate the pain/discomfort anymore. I believe the body is incredible and can heal and recover from most everything ( I know of people whose inguinal hernia have healed after a long time and they were in optimal shape/balance) – but not from a foreign body being in there.

[PeterC]

quote Alephy:

So I was wondering, do athletes with a normal inguinal hernia go for a mesh surgery, or they stay away from them? Any examples/names? I have already read about British Athletics and the mishap with one of their top athletes….
I am just trying to understand if meshes are just a way to target the big number of patients, while those who can afford it or whose physical requirements exceed the average stay away from them?

I replied to your other thread as well – but stay away from mesh unless you have the tiniest hernia and everything else is 100% in TOP SHAPE. Its a foreign body inserted in your body. If you’re as fit as you make it sound – you will have no problem with a pure tissue repair. Google it – every hockey player or other athlete go to Meyers or Dr.Brown or even Muschawek in Germany where they get pure tissue repairs. Why do you think that is? Just a few weeks ago Sidney Crosby had a core injury repair with Meyers in Philly and they told him he’d be back in 6 weeks. Why would top professional athletes with unlimited budgets get pure tissue repairs if mesh repairs were the way to go?

I don’t know why Dr. Towfigh is suggesting that most of them get a laparoscopic mesh repair – from being in chronic pain over the past 2 years after having mesh surgery and being a pro dancer – I promise you that I have not read in a single place that athletes usually get mesh repair. If they were – you’d be finding those testimonials and stories.

[PeterC]

I also want to add that – if I would’ve walked out of there still having my original pain but nothing else – I would not be angry at all.

I understand that he can try to help me and miss. It happens. My option then is simply to keep looking and someone will eventually find whats going on.

The problem here is 1) he didn’t fix my original issue
2) I cannot go see anyone else now because of how extensively he remodelled my groin. Healthy tissues were forever altered. For absolutely no reason. This is effectively worse than having a mesh. At least with the mesh – your tissues are still where they are meant to be.

I’ve read about several athletes now that have had to go to Meyers after Dr. Brown went to town on them. Dr. Meyers has to literally undo/cut you up to put the muscle tissue back to where its supposed to be.

All because Dr. Brown cuts you up like salami.

It’s a nightmare.

[PeterC]

I’m glad you’re having a great recovery.

I don’t think by any means that it’s normal for us to go and have to decipher which treatment will not damage us. We don’t go to med school, these are doctors that ”supposedly” specialize in groin issues. They should be able to tell us exactly why they’re doing certain procedures and the effect of it. Or more importantly they should be able to tell us that they don’t know and refer us. It takes a lot of integrity to tell a patient you don’t think its right for them

If the procedure means you won’t be able to flex your abs properly again, I figure that after 29 years you know this and you should be able to tell the patient so they can make a decision with that in mind. This man advertises that he works with professional athletes all the time.

Why are they all going to Dr. Meyers then? I guess I had to find out the hard way.

[PeterC]

Name the doctor who screwed you up. From reading that they took all your nerves out It has to be Dr. Chen because he’s the only maniac pretend-doctor that takes pleasure in hurting his patients with his students.

Name these people. Don’t let them go on while you suffer for the rest of your life. Make sure someone else doesn’t end up like you.

[PeterC]

Hey James,

I appreciate your input.

I need you to understand something – I am warning people because this is gross negligence. This is not a ”for some patients it goes well’.

My left side had a 1-2 cm external oblique tear (which is less than 1 inch). As I was having the right side fixed I figured, might as well close that because it hasn’t healed properly in 2 years and I dont want it to extend.

I specifically asked him prior to surgery – are you just cutting into things for the sake of it. He said – if there is nothing to repair, I won’t cut. I will be careful. I will take my time.

I told Dr. Brown that if he’s able to help me heal up I will seriously advocate for him and that I’ll invite him to my first live show and we laughed it off.

I woke up with the exact same operation on both sides.

He extended the 1-2 cm tear on the left side into a 5 cm cut. Then he cut into my internal oblique which had no tear, no herniation, no weakness. Then he cut into my transverse abdominus which also had no herniation, no weakness, no tear. PER HIS OWN NOTES as he was in there, confirming what 4 MRIs and 2 ultrasounds had already shown.

He then proceeded to give me a full blown, FULL BLOWN, hernia surgery. He tied up all 3 muscle layers together. Cut into my inguinal ligament. Moved my spermatic cord out of position.

When’s the last time you had surgery and you woke up and they performed an entire procedure for an issue you didn’t have?? I have a hernia surgery and not a single doctor understands why. There was no hernia. This isn’t a sports hernia treatment.

This is extremely gross negligence and disregard for patient health and function. I had full function of my abs before his surgery – I just had a dull ache from the 1-2 cm tear in my external oblique.

How am I to trust another Doctor ever in my life after this? Knowing I told this man that I was scared of doctors and that I needed to function to go back to dance.

Was it because he doesn’t respect me as a professional dancer? Professional dancer was ranked the #1 most physically demanding job in the U.S this year, above every other sport. Google it.

If not – why? Why would an experienced surgeon CAUSE voluntary damage to healthy tissue.

If you went to the doctor because you cut your finger, or there’s tearing, and you came out without the finger or the surgeon cut off your finger and sew it back together – would that make sense to you? No it doesn’t. You don’t need to be a doctor to know this. The premise is – less is more. In ANY surgery – preserving healthy tissue integrity is a priority.

Additionally – if you are not an athlete you absolutely cannot vouch for the success of his treatment as far as groin/sports hernia treatment goes. Mechanically its impossible to flex your abs the way he remodels them in his sports hernia surgery. An engineer can understand it. The structure is so far altered that there is no rehabbing that. He treats you as an object, not as a human and not as live tissue. I’m an athlete for god’s sake. The #1 thing I need is full function this was communicated over and over and over again.

I’ve already expressed this before but the right side mesh I had was so superficial that even he said he’d never seen it in that placement. The only reason took it out is because mechanically I got worse after having it there. It wasn’t touching any nerves, I have no nerve damage, the mesh is irrelevant here. It’s not the typical mesh you see on these forums. I got it out as a ‘might as well take it out since it didn’t help, while you go through the scar to go fix what they didn’t the first time around”.

So not only did he not pinpoint the cause of my dysfunction – he caused 10 folds the damage I had before. That’s the issue. What he does cannot be undone unless you seriously damage the tissue.

So while I appreciate you playing devil’s advocate, this is pretty straight forward and I will not sit by while other people go to this man and put their trust in him.

[PeterC]

I appreciate the sympathy.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by  PeterC.

[PeterC]

” – if anterior mesh (eg open) then mesh removal can only be done open. ”

So a mesh from a previous OPEN surgery wouldn’t be eligible to be removed laparoscopically?

[PeterC]

Definitely appreciate the insight doc.

[PeterC]

Alephy – you are right. The whole body is connected and weakness in the abdominal wall will cause a tight quadratus lumborum as well as a tight psoas as they brace to protect the spine.

I highly suggest to anyone reading this to look up the MoveU program – and to enroll. Its a program that takes people with various injuries/conditions and helps them restore all the muscle functions and connexions. The creators are two therapists/chiropractors & one of them had an inguinal hernia as well as diastasis recti and he healed from both without surgery.

The program is hard & obviously a million factors come into play – such as what other injuries you have since the whole body is connected. But I can tell you that I currently have a tear on both sides, a mesh on one side & a nerve out (so weakness on that side of my abdominal) & have zero back pain.

Prior to doing the program I had crazy SI JOINT pain & low back pain before & after surgery. Its once I realized my first surgery didn’t do anything to help me or any pain (front or back) that I looked into it and understood what even led to my injuries in the first place.

I highly recommend it.