Can we mention the Germans?

[William Bryant]

The German surgeons seek to be highly rated, Koch, Conze and Lorenz but I can’t find many reviews for them. And they dint seem to have many patients who put here. So has anyone had a good experience with them or found good reviews?

I know Baris was unhappy and someone else asked how can they be proficient in 5 to 8 types of hernia repair / surgery?

They’re the negatives, looking forward to positives?

[Good intentions]

You might have some luck looking at their repair centers and their publications.

https://www.hernia-centre.com/medical-team.html

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andreas-Koch-16

[Good intentions]

Not sure if these are the same video relabeled.

https://www.facebook.com/Dr.Towfigh/videos/herniatalk-live-qa-with-dr-andreas-koch-01122021/971835976556663/

[William Bryant]

Thanks Good Intentions. Unfortunately it was Dr Koch that Baris had a bad experience with I think. Although John Fortem, and his brother, had good repairs. I think it was them.

I’d have thought they’d have been more reviews about Drs Koch, Weiss, Conze and Lorenz.

Maybe Watchful found some?

Lorenz, Watchful found out, had a shouldice, at Shouldice, so he is confident in that repair at least.

[Watchful]

William,

I don’t know where Lorenz had his Shouldice.

You can find reviews for German doctors on jameda.de

Some of them also have reviews on Google under their name or their clinic’s name.

[William Bryant]

Ah, sorry Watchful, but at least we know he has a shouldice repair which does at least show he has confidence in it. I remember you’ve mentioned Janeda before, I shall try that.

I still would have thought there’d be a few more posters on here who have been to Germany for repair.

[Jack2021]

There are currently 110 reviews on the UK Trustpilot website for Biohernia regarding Dr Andreas Koch’s and Dr Martin Wiese’s hernia repairs with patients in Europe – https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/biohernia.com?sort=recency

Two of the more recent reviews, one by a guy in GB on 10th February and the one just above that by a guy in the Netherlands on 8th March appear too similar, though who knows with any online reviews. Maybe the Dutch guy wasn’t sure what to write.

The odd review only mentions the location where the person had surgery, so FYI, Dr Koch is in Cottbus and Dr Wiese is in Frankfurt.

One of the reviews for Dr Wiese mentions that he reinforced the Shouldice repair for one patient with an absorbable mesh which cost over €1000 extra. In regard to this, I’ve also seen a video with Dr Koch talking about doing the same in some cases (where he feels reinforcement is necessary from what I remember).

It won’t allow me to post the links to the jameda reviews, but Dr Wiese has 175 reviews, Dr Conze 194 reviews and Dr Lorenz 39 reviews.

Dr Koch doesn’t appear to be listed, although there are a few doctors with the same name.

I was using my phone rather than laptop and it was trickier translating, so I only checked the first few reviews for each of them which were all positive.

[William Bryant]

That is a problem with reviews, manipulation, I know that through a
bad experience I had with a little purchase once, if you read thoroughly every single 137 review as I did for them it was obvious many were same person.

That said I have found the reviews interesting in as much as I didn’t realize Ralph Lorenz did Desarda as much as reviews suggest. He still had a shouldice himself though!?

I’m tending to think Lorenz and Conze are maybe a better choice than bio? But I haven’t compared prices yet.

Are Lorenz and Conze careful to spare nerves?

[William Bryant]

Just found another legal case against one the Germans following hernia repair, poster Ben999, doesn’t name the surgeon on here but says his clinic is “near Coburg Germany”.

I don’t know enough about the geography or location of all German hernia centers, any ideas anyone?

[William Bryant]

Just found another legal case against one the Germans following hernia repair, poster Ben999, doesn’t name the surgeon on here but says his clinic is “near Coburg Germany”.

I don’t know enough about the geography or location of all German hernia centers, any ideas anyone?

If you search forum using Coburg you’ll find ben 999s post.

Im worried as Spandau is five minutes from Coburg.

[William Bryant]

This was Ben 999’s post

“I’m not sure I can name the surgeon for legal reasons as I sued him and there’s a case going on right now.
I guess I can say that his clinic is near Coburg, Germany”.

Any clues? That’s two German surgeons sued now. You’d never get that from the reviews so thanks ht and thanks to the two players who have told us, cryptically.

[William Bryant]

Players should be posters my phone ‘corrected’ it.

[William Bryant]

Fortunately it’s been kindly confirmed it wasn’t/isn’t Dr Lorenz. Very grateful for that information.

[Chuck]

William Bryant thanks for posting and for your tireless research. Our friend Watchful took an exhaustive look at this and concluded Dr. Conze maybe the best overall surgeon in the world…given his experience and his ability to tailor the repairs…I am still frightened of the shouldice repair…so many people complaining of chronic pain…and Watchful’s own report from his consult is particularly dismaying…When the operating surgeon confesses that chronic pain is a real possibility you know you got a problem given how much all these scumbag doctors lie and misrepresent things. I was destroyed with double mesh….but honestly after years of research I don’t know what i would have done if i had to do it over….maybe just go to conze or kang and pray….even that is probably not enough…a hernia almost certainly means you are dealing with some level of chronic pain for life.

[Freeman]

Hi
I am french and I had a shouldice inguinal hernia surgery 15 days ago in Germany. I mean a pure tissue repair. This surgery has been organised with BIOHERNIA an organisation that schedule the appointments with the surgeons. I can just testify that even if my healing process is not finish I feel great. The afternoon after the morning surgery I have walked 5 kms withou pain. The surgeon ( I will not quote any name) was one of the three highly specialised surgeon that you will find on BIOHERNIA web site. He was very hearty and very professionnal and his team was exactly like him. I remenber he told me just before I felt asleep with anesthesia ” you are in good hands and I will take all the time needed to perform the surgery ” So I don’t know if later I will get some complication like chronic pain but I am deeply convinced that if you carry a piece of plastic mesh inside your groin you will be much more in risk of harsh complications. I mention also that in the USA you will pay may be 3 to 4 times what I have paid. An other good place , I think, for people living in north America is the Shouldice hospital in Toronto. Here is a blog of former patients from Shouldice hospital in Toronto exchanging about their surgery. https://shouldiceherniarepair.wordpress.com/2011/09/08/week-of-surgery-hospitalization/

[Chuck]

Freeman…thanks for posting but good grief…why not mention the name? By “hearty” i am guessing Koch….he seems like a really nice guy…

[William Bryant]

Hello Freeman, thanks for the report. Could you name the surgeon as it’s very useful to those deciding where to go to know who the praise is for.

If you read other reports of operations, the surgeon is usually named … Good or bad. As this is a good result ot can only benefit the surgeon and future patients alike.

[pinto]

Everyone take a look at the blog linked by @Freeman!! Are the photos of the patient’s incision scars typical of IH operations??? I didn’t read the blog–maybe the guy had a whale of a hernia. Otherwise it looks like butchery. Just saying.
(@Freeman, excuse my post, but does your incision(s) similarly look that way, too?)

[Alan]

Those incisions are huge, is that normal for shouldice! I thought mine were large at 3.5cm :⁠-⁠|

[Watchful]

That incision size is normal at the Shouldice Hospital. They are famous for low-recurrence tissue repair; not for being gentle on the patient…

[Freeman]

Hi folks,
My incision is 4 cm long. I think that they don’t use exactly the same shouldice surgery in Germany. For example they have not used steel stiches but thread. I had a surgery for one small inguinal hernia a little bit more complicated because it was both direct and indirect hernia . I don’t care with the size of the incision . If you want a tiny incision try laparascopy , just 3 small holes and a mesh inserted. So you will be beautiful may be sooner than after the souldice surgery. But inside it will not be the same scenery. I don’t know if you have ever seen mesh removed after been inserted for years. It is horrendous. So after 15 days post op my scar is fine , less and less visible.I still have slight disconfort when my body lie down and get up or other motions I do. After 30 days post op I will make a review.

[William Bryant]

Brilliant, looking forward to the next update Freeman.

I’m not too worried about scar either really. A good result is better. I already have a prominent 4 inch scar on stomach. It’ll match!

Dud you ever consider Dr Lorenz or Dr Conze?

[Oceanic]

Conze is 3 times the cost of Koch or Wiese and probabaly not 3 times the Surgeon but I agree he is quite possibly the best

[pinto]

Gentlemen, you’ve gone the wrong way about the cosmetics of scars. After being wheeled in from Kang surgery, I was surprised how beautiful the incision looked. More importantly, however, are two points I believe you guys missed: 1 the bigger the incision the more pain; 2 Kang’s 1 1/2 inch deserves a close look. His and Shouldice’s must be radically different surgery. How is it he manages such a small incision? (rhetorical ques.). It probably explains why his surgeries result in little pain (comparatively speaking). We know from what he says, he thinks Shouldice is a bit too invasive. His IH has been called Marcy but he believes his is considerably different. In time maybe we’ll learn more about it.

[William Bryant]

Ah, thanks for that Pinto!
I hadn’t considered it bit it does make sense I think. Even if small I’m not worried about the scar. Here’s why…
I had surgery and when my GP saw the after math, scar, so to speak he said “god he’s made a right mess of that”! But the procedure itself was good!

However if a small scar means less pain, it’s win win for Dr Kang.

By the way, was I right in thinking it was your link to the sketch about hernia mesh surgery being introduced to surgeons? If so would it be possible to post it again. It summed up a lot of things.

[Freeman]

Hi Pinto, in the case of my own experience I had few soreness post operative . I took a total amount of 5 Ibuprofene pills the following days. . I have felt and feel less now what I call a “mechanical stretching of sutures” . I mean that when I stretch, twist or take some motions it pull ( gently by now) on the sutures.But when I walk I feel nothing .An other example is coughing and sneezing . Whent it happen I put my hand on the groin but I feel that it is more “solid rock” than the first week where it hurt. The most important is that I don’t feel a pain which could be linked to nerves damages . This is the most serious risk of chronic pain.

[Freeman]

I have an other detail to add. The inner sutures are not absorbable in the shouldice technic used for me. They are permanent.

[pinto]

This website IT really sucks. A message I wrote and posted evaporated.

[Jack2021]

I agree Pinto, it can be really frustrating. It times out pretty quickly. I write my posts separately now and paste them across to avoid it happening.

It doesn’t seem to like multiple web links either.

[Good intentions]

I select and copy everything that I wrote before I hit the Submit button. I’ve lost a few posts in the past.

[William Bryant]

I just type really fast! Posts might be semi literate, unintelligible and riddled with errors but not been timed out – yet.

[pinto]

Thanks gentlemen @Jack2021, @Good intentions, @William Bryant.
I play Russian roulette with it finding sometimes even if timed out, window refresh reveals my post; other times nothing. 🙁 It just gets tiring having to copy the message before posting. I’ve yet to encounter the same problem at other websites. Indeed, one website I do, even if your device suddenly turns off your unfinished post still remains at the website.

William, some of your posts are of considerable length. You must have the luck of the Irish; that’s all I can say.

[pinto]

@Freeman, I’m glad things are working out for you. Thanks for sharing and in particular the video link.

[William Bryant]

Hello Pinto… Yes I write a lot but say very little!!! I know! It’s a ‘gift’. But it is good for insomniacs I suppose.

[pinto]

William, you’re much appreciated here, I’m sure.

[William Bryant]

Costings! Can anyone help with how much the various German centres charge approximately…

Biohernia

Dr Conz

Dr Lorenz

Many thanks

[Oceanic]

Biohernia €2200

Dr Conzw €6200

Dr Lorenz Don’t know

[William Bryant]

Thanks Oceanic. Slight difference. I’m thinking maybe Dr. Lorenz is between those two prices.

[Oceanic]

I have surgery scheduled with Dr. Conze, will post how things go so wish me luck

[Watchful]

Good luck, Oceanic. You made a good choice. Please report how things go.

[William Bryant]

Very best of luck Oceanic. Hope everything goes really well for you and if you can post how it went and type of repair, when you’re up to it.

[Good intentions]

What type of hernia will he be repairing? How active are you? How did you get the hernia? Those are interesting questions, I think.

Good luck.

[Oceanic]

Small Inguinal hernia (3-4cm long), moderarely active, I don’t think one single event caused it but an accumlation of lifting over the years.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by Oceanic.

[Freeman]

I had an hernia repair 21 days ago with Dr Wiese in Kelkheim (Germany) as I mentioned before . A small inguinal hernia however it was a combination of direct and indirect hernia. Very happy with the outcome and a lot of gratitude for the surgeon. I feel great.

[William Bryant]

Thanks Freeman for the information and glad to hear it’s gone well. Did you know it was one direct and one indirect before you got to Dr Wiese?

[Freeman]

Hi William, I didn’t know . I had only one inguinal hernia at the left side of the groin. The surgeon saids me after the operation that it was a combination of direct and indirect hernia. Only ultrasound could have evaluated the anatomy of the hernia. I don’t know if surgeons perform ultrasound prior to surgery ? In France I was on the verge to get a mesh surgery before to cancel it and they didnt proposed me ultrasound exams.

[pinto]

@Freeman, congratulations on the success. No surgery is without risk. You are saying you only had one hernia yet the surgeon said it was a combination of indirect and direct IH. From your description it appears you never had an ultrasound (or other imaging) and this “combination” became known only during the course of surgery. Wouldn’t a combination be literally impossible technically speaking? Aren’t they one or the other? Much has been posted at HT, for example, how they merit different surgical methodology. 🙂 This could warrant a thread dedicated to answering this.

[William Bryant]

I think it may have been a pantaloon hernia. It’s of interest to me because of the mixed diagnosis I’ve had with my ultrasound saying direct yet every consultant, and I’ve seen 3, saying indirect by touch/cough etc.

The consultants say it doesn’t matter as surgery is same regardless???!!!

[pinto]

William, your post sheds much light on it. Thanks. However, I hope you and @Freeman can be ready for a revelation. It is this from radiopaedia.org: They inform us that pantaloon hernia is not one but mulitple hernias combined:
“A pantaloon hernia, also known as a saddlebag hernia, is defined as any combination of two adjacent hernia sacs of the femoral or inguinal region (direct or indirect inguinal hernias (alternative plural: herniae)) on the same side 2. Thus, examples include: femoral with direct hernias, femoral with indirect hernias, indirect with direct hernias.” https://radiopaedia.org/articles/pantaloon-hernia?lang=us

Given that is an organization of radiologists, we can assume the quote above is authoritative. So, William, both you and Freeman might actually have or had two or more hernias/herniae, as well as explaining the contradictory diagnoses you received.

[Freeman]

Hi folks ,
First this link for combined hernia :

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1743919116301418

I explain my situation : I am 66 and this article is very related to my age for higher risks of developping a combined hernia.
The surgeon showed me photos of the operation and said that I had ” a long sac of indirect hernia and a smaller direct hernia” . But he estimate that indirect hernia have a lower chance of recurrence that direct hernia so I was somehow luckier to get a predominant indirect hernia than a predominant direct hernia . He has evaluated the rate of recurrence to 2 % . I asked him if it was more complicated to repair , he said “not for me ” . The operation lasted one hour like a classical shouldice operation .He said that the my tissue was good enough to make a shouldice rapair. I can testify from my own experience that I have had a total confidence in his expertise and ability to cure me. He had performed thousands of hernia surgery for 20 years. I had a complete trust in him when I met him in person the day before the surgery. It was not only based on his vast experience but it was my feeling. Before to fall asleep in the operating room he told me ” I will take all the time needed for your operation , I am never in hurry”, After the surgery when I came back home I sent him some questions sometimes and a photo of my scar 2 weeks after and he replied me in the next 30 minutes each time. Now after 24 days after the surgery I feel great.

[Good intentions]

Thanks for posting your story Freeman. It is great that you had a good result and know some of the details of the method.

I found a link to Dr. Wiese’s profile on the internet. It is in German but anybody can use Google to translate it.

https://www.chirurgie-hessen.de/

Also, the jameda link –

https://www.jameda.de/martin-g-wiese/facharzt-fuer-allgemeinchirurgie-spezieller-unfallchirurg/kelkheim

[Good intentions]

I got back on to Dr. Wiese’s practice web page to see what types of procedures he performs. It looks like he has the ability to do several and chooses the one that he feels will give the best results. In another current thread there is much discussion about how surgeons tend to be “one-trick ponies”, only performing a single type of hernia repair. This is the training that today’s surgeons get, to use only mesh for hernia repair, codified by the suspect Guidelines that the EHS promotes. Very interesting that Dr. Wiese is there in Europe but chooses his own path.

Here is the text from the web site, to add to Freeman’s report of receiving a Shouldice type repair.

https://www.chirurgie-hessen.de/Leistungen

“Hernia Surgery
Individual concepts for the treatment of inguinal, navel and abdominal wall hernias, including incisional hernias
Training center for years and now international internship center and Milos training center
Conference President of the German Hernia Society 2022 together with PD. dr medical Guido Woeste
Member of the extended board of the German Hernia Society
Inguinal hernia operations with and without synthetic mesh
Abdominal wall hernias with diastasis recti using the MILOS technique
Second opinions and advice for athletes”

[Good intentions]

Here is more from Dr. Wiese’s bio.

https://www.chirurgie-hessen.de/Martin+G.+Wiese

“Since my training in the clinics of the Main-Taunus-Kreis Bad Soden under Professor Peter Wendling, I have increasingly dealt with the topic of hernias, i.e. soft tissue fractures, in addition to general surgery. Since then I have helped to develop new procedures and have been a guest center for hernia surgery for years, and since 2016 also for international guests. With us you get an individual concept for the care of your inguinal, navel or incisional hernia, also in cooperation with neighboring clinics. A specialty is chronic groin pain and groin pain in athletes. I regularly give lectures on these topics and have performed several live pre-operations at international congresses.

Since 2016 I can be found in the Focus list of top physicians for hernia surgery without interruption.

Along with PD. dr medical Guido Woeste, I am the conference president of the German Hernia Society 2022 and a member of the extended board of the German Hernia Society.”

[Good intentions]

If you scroll down to the German Hernia society on the EHS chapters page and open the + button you’ll see some familiar names. Kockerling, Conze, Lorenz. I think that William might be right to focus on what’s happening in Germany. They don’t seem as tied to mesh as the EHS is. The EHS started the push to mesh and is fully invested in promoting its use, no matter what.

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