Good intentions
Forum Replies Created
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Hello ajm22. All of my bodily functions have improved and become more normal since I had the mesh removed. As I’ve mentioned in other posts it’s been a slow process. but constant improvement. I was just realizing yesterday as I took a long walk/hike around a nice city that the mesh had really “calloused:” the tissue it had been in contact with. My abdominal wall is still stiff overall but getting softer and more normal over the weeks, months and years. Dr. Belyanski’s comment about a “scar plate” fit what I’ve been experiencing. I think that the plate forms wherever the mesh was, and is a reason for so many problems. The surgeons who implant don’t think about how the scar plate effects thing in the long-term.
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I found that I had effects from mesh that could not be explained directly by defining specific nerves or vessels being affected. There was no question for me though that the mesh caused the problem. After the mesh was removed the effects resolved and I was back to normal. I think that there is a thought process that assumes that only tissue in direct contact with an inflammatory agent will be affected. But I think that the body might react more generally and cause unexplained side-effects.
As far as mesh removal, you have a complex hernia repair system, designed to be permanent. The damage from removal will probably take some time to recover from. Dr. Brown has a long history of working with athletes, he was on my very short list of potential mesh removal surgeons. I chose Dr. Peter Billing though because he does laparoscopic removal. Good luck.
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quote saro:it is recommended to me because I have waited too long and my hernia can only be contained with a mesh or with non-absorbable sutures
the latter are never absorbed, while the biological one takes a year
good question huh?I would not conflate the cause of all of the hernia repair problems down to the use of synthetic material in the body. The rise of the long-term hernia mesh problems seems to follow the rise in coverage of larger internal areas with mesh, and with the laparosocpy used to do so. Those three things have grown together over the years. Mesh problems, mesh area coverage, laparsocopy. The dissection of large areas to implant absorbable mesh might have similar problems to synthetic mesh, just due to the exposure of so much area to place the mesh. Without proper long-term studies, everyone is just trying new “stuff” and hoping.
Ask the person proposing the use of the absorbable mesh why they think it’s better and what proof that they can show you that it is better, compared to other options. Don’t take short-term results as worth much. If they refer back to device maker data, be very suspect. The device makers are selling product, not curing patients. The faster that they get to market the more money they make.
Good luck. Get second and third opinions, even if you respect the first surgeon’s work.
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Good luck Forest, After the absorbale portion is absorbed you”ll have a common polymer fiber-based mesh. The same long-term odds as everyone else I think. Short-term might look better but long-term, there’s no reason to expect a difference.
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[USER=”2580″]DrBrown[/USER] second try
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As I understand things mesh would not be an option for a 12 yr old. But it would not be a surprise to see the device makers trying to get more market share. Don’t let anyone use mesh, he’s too young.
[USER=”935″]drtowfigh[/USER]
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quote Ericajane1987:I have been in a hospital bed and laid flat for 9 days as every time I move it starts the pain. The dr said it’s unexplainable. .
I think that you need to work hard to get another doctor. Sometimes people get so focused on solving a problem themselves that they forget the real reason that they are there. Your doctor should be seeking help himself if he does not know what is happening. The fact that he’s not, while you suffer, suggests that he has lost touch with the oath that he took.
Ask your nurses if they know of a doctor who might be able to help. Nurses see everything that happens over the years and often know how to get things done. They might not be able to answer directly though so listen for hints.
God luck.
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That is terrible Dr. Brown. Can you give more details on the type of mesh, the type of repair, and how long the patient suffered with it? Also, how soon after the first repair did they start to feel pain? How long did it take for those vessels to become trapped?
Many people wonder how long that they should wait before considering removal.
[USER=”2580″]DrBrown[/USER]
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What type of surgery did you have? Laparoscopy is used for many procedures.
If “the doctor’ is the one that did the surgery, he or she might be avoiding the possibility that they made a mistake. Find a new doctor for a second opinion. There is nothing at all wrong with asking for a second opinion, it actually takes the pressure off of the first doctor. You do not owe the doctor loyalty.
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At four days the mesh is basically just sitting in a bath of weak tissue and fluids. There is probably minor movement of the tissues and the mesh when you move.
Can you give some details of the procedure and the type of mesh that was used? Is it the same as your first procedure and did you go to the same surgeon?
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quote B_Rebovich12:I was wondering if it is standard protocol to have an umbilical hernia containing bowel fixed?
I lead a very active lifestyle and intend to resume my typical workout routines, which involve lifting and lots of interval training and running.
I don’t want to have to worry about this getting larger or causing issues with bowel strangulation. Is that something that you have to worry about with these types?next: I would intend to have both situations remedied at one time.
Would it be best to pursue a general surgeon vs. a gynecologist for this?
Are there physicians who specialize in both types of repair?Take your time and find a verified hernia specialist with a history of working on athletic people, with verifiable success. Make sure that they have a history of successful repairs, not just a web site that says they are a specialist. Whatever you do, do not just accept what the medical system provides at the first referral. There is a “lowest common denominator” approach to hernia repair, with a high risk of ruining your body for athletic activity. It involves maximum mesh coverage, designed to keep you alive and avoid future recurrences, but with little consideration for actual long-term physical, mental, and emotional quality of life.
As a strong healthy active person you will be tempted to think that you can “power through” whatever happens, just work harder until you’re healed, but with mesh problems the harder you try the worse things get. Read through old Topics on the forum, there are many from athletic people who can no longer do the things that they were assured they would be able to do. Nothing has changed over the last few years, the mesh revolution is still growing and being locked in by standardization of methods. Make sure that you get it right from the very beginning.
If you just take your primary physicians first referral, it is almost sure that you will get a mesh repair, possibly from a newly produced surgeon who only knows mesh implantation, with all of its known risks. Choose the physician you want and do whatever it takes to get them.
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Sorry to sound so “not positive” Pericles. Really though, it’s too soon since your surgery to know what’s what. At four days there is most likely still lots of extra fluid around the surgery site that needs to be removed by your body. But getting your surgery notes while you wait is worth doing.
Good luck. [USER=”2993″]Pericles[/USER]
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Change – The details of your surgery might help. There are two main forms of laparoscopy, TEP and TAPP, and many different types of mesh, plus the two main types of hernia, direct or indirect. The surgery notes should describe what the surgeon found and what they did.
Generally though, the mesh, of whatever brand or type, is just placed over the hernia area, with much extra material extending well beyond the area of the hernia itself. The stretched out hole is almost always left alone. This extra mesh material will shrink over time as your body tries to heal. The mesh itself is pretty strong and very unlikely to burst or tear. The swelling that you feel could be fluids that have accumulated in the stretched pocket left by the hernia contents after they were pulled back in to the abdominal cavity. There is no way to predict the results of any individual’s surgery, because no data is collected for all of the different possible combinations, so no correlations of good or bad can be made. Surgeons themselves, most of them, have little idea of how their patients do beyond a few weeks after surgery.
Staying mobile during the first few weeks seems to give good results. It will move the fluids around in the dissected area so that new tissue can grow in to the mesh. The dissection process, the peeling open of the cavity in which to place the mesh, is the main damage that your body is trying to heal. All you can do for the first few weeks is hope, the average surgeon will tell you to wait and see what happens.
Good luck. Keep walking and moving around, don’t do anything strenuous. Things might turn out okay for you. But, unless a hernia recurrence is found, there is no standard course of action to make you feel better. If the mesh looked “right” as they closed you up they aren’t going to do anything for weeks or months. Don’t expect a response from your surgeon that involves more surgery, it’s very unlikely.
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Thank you for commenting Dr. Brown. It looks like Bard has already developed a new product, Modified Onflex, and introduced it to market, somehow. The 510k bypass process again. Overall, each patient with a problem is just an involuntary subject in the device makers’ experiments. It’s incredible that this is now normal. Validating new products is not even necessary anymore. All it takes is an idea and it can be implanted in patients as soon as it’s produced and delivered to a surgeon. It’s hard to read these marketing pamphlets without feeling sick to see how uncontrolled the market is. Complete abdication of responsibility from the FDA, and the community of surgeons that use mesh. Surgeons should be refusing to use these experimental products.
Here is the experimental justification for the new absorbable ring, copied below. Preclinical data on lab pigs. Results may not correlate to humans. But it’s for sale, ready for implantation. Amazing. Any surgeon who reads the fine print is guilty of malpractice I think, if they use this product without informing the patient that it is unproven in humans, even in the short term, let alone long term. Or they can plead ignorance and blame the device maker.
“These images are from a porcine study using Ventrio™ Hernia Patch which contains the same SorbaFlex™ memory technology.*
“* Preclinical data on file at C. R. Bard, Inc. Results may not correlate to performance in humans.”
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The people in Denmark seem to have the tools and the mindset to better define the hernia repair field, as a whole. But they seem to be constraining themselves to defining mesh repair alone. A true research scientist would compare the results to non-mesh repairs also. Many of the studies, like the “International Guidelines for groin hernia management” are disingenuous, in that they ignore the non-mesh methods. It’s a subtle from of dishonesty.
The true and honest name for the Guidelines should be “International Guidelines for groin hernia management with mesh devices”.
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This is a problem also. Industry is driving the use of mesh, not the results of the repairs. They’re not going to be happy funding researchers that show that mesh is bad. It’s a major problem in all types of research.
Conflict of interest
SÖ reports no potential conflicts of interest. KA reports personal fees from Bard outside the submitted work. JR reports personal fees from Bard and Merck, outside the submitted work.
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5-6% still in pain after 5 years, and 34% unknown. And they have defined the pain as “cannot be ignored”, implying that pain was still there for many subjects, but they were able to ignore it. Seems like a pretty low bar. Also, as usual, all mesh types and the two lap methods are balled up in to “mesh”. No definition of the procedures in the abstract. Maybe in the full paper but the authors published in one of the subscription journals so only those who pay can see the results.
Sorry, I am just supplying a counterpoint. The authors write like the results are good news but it looks like bad news to me.
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[USER=”2987″]dh305[/USER] Here is a link to another forum with more stories from people who have had hernia repair. It covers the spectrum from good to bad, it might help you figure out where you are on the spectrum. As you can see, it’s not a black and white situation, it’s a wide range with lots of variation, made even more complicated by all of the different types of mesh that have been developed over the years.
It’s been an active thread for over eight years so there are some long-term stories.
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=133353003&page=1
Here’s a link to an article about healing that might help you understand what’s happening. Unfortunately, inflammation is the double-edged sword that the mesh concept uses to get the mesh to attach to the body’s tissue. The mesh is always a foreign body that the human body will try to eject or destroy. The “game” is to try to find that level of activity that allows the mesh to exist without acute inflammation.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147323000903700531