Good intentions
Forum Replies Created
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quote SighFigh:Good Intentions,Would you mind telling me what surgeon you used for the last repair? You can send it me by private message if you don’t mind.
thanks in advance!
There was not actually a repair, just removal of the mesh. The tissue around the mesh has become stiff and leathery, so the hernia is gone. In the big picture, I traded one type of damage for another. And paid for it with three years of life quality and a lot of money.
Sorry. It looks like you’re seeking a solution to a hernia problem. I think that the surgeon who removed my mesh also uses mesh for repair. We did not talk much about his hernia repairs, only my mesh removal.
I still recommend trying to find a surgeon who knows of at least a few of his or her patients that have returned to their former activity levels, and can describe them to you. And make sure that they are using the same method that worked for those patients. Many surgeons are getting drawn in to changing to laparscopic large area implantation, covering all of the lower abdomen with mesh, for the speed of surgery and the prophylactic aspect of covering a large area. They’re changing from what used to work, but with a low level of recurrence, to untested methods that cause new unexpected problems.
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quote miner:Keep in mind most professional athletes have whatever surgery gets them back on the field fastest not what might cause chronic pain. As they can play through chronic pain with medication.
I don’t think that this is true. I’ve thought of the difference between professionals and athletic people and the effort expended by each can be similar. The skill levels are different but the work on the body is about the same. The damage that the mesh does is not just pain, that can be disappeared with drugs. It’s real damage, with swelling, and inflammation, followed by healing efforts. There are also real effects on physical function in that area. Constant inflammation causes other problems. You would expect professional athletes to be even more sensitive to the physical damage that the mesh causes.
When the meshes are removed they are always smaller than when they were put in. They’re not flexible anymore, not soft, not pliable. Often the tissue around the mesh is inflamed.
Once a procedure has been shown to actually delay getting back to performance levels for pro athletes, it is avoided. The managers, agents, and support people behind the athletes know what will work long-term. I doubt that the athletes themselves have much to say about the procedure used. It’s a financial decision. You can find old literature where they tried to use mesh to repair athletic pubalgia, aka sports hernias. They don’t do that anymore, it didn’t work.
I didn’t mean to write so much, rejecting your idea. Sorry. The short answer is, actually, that laparoscopic mesh implantation is a one hour outpatient procedure. And because the incisions are smaller, the healing is faster. Rapid return to work is one of the main selling points for laparoscopic mesh implantation. It should be the fastest way for a pro to get back on the field, and they don’t use it.
You’ve actually helped form another argument against mesh implantation. If it really was what they say it is, professional athletes would be using it.
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quote SighFigh:Good Intentions, and Dr. Kang, thank you both for the info.
Good Intentions, did you have the mesh removed?
I did have it removed and I’m doing well. I had immediate benefit after the removal, but the full recovery is taking longer. Three years of constant irritation seems to have thickened the tissue of my lower abdomen to a leathery, less flexible quality. It’s taking a while to loosen up but progress is consistent.
There was someone on the forum recently, ajm22 I think, asking about the best surgery to have and I recommended waiting, if possible. There are some interesting things happening in the field. The “standard of care” seems like it must change relatively soon. Things seem to be getting more clear about what works and what doesn’t. Mesh has many problems.
ajm22 was about to have mesh implantation not long ago but he has not been back. I’ve found that this is fairly common on the forums, which is somewhat disturbing. People are usually happy to tell about their successful journey through a traumatic experience, especially after they’ve received helpful advice. I’ve only seen two people, on a different forum, actually come back and describe successful mesh implantation results. I think that most just don’t want to talk about it, which is telling.
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quote Milo:Hi, currently 6 hours post-op;
I think that 6 hours is way too early to be trying to asses much about the surgery. The tissues that were damaged during surgery all leak a small amount of fluid, which builds up and takes time to get reabsorbed by the body. I had a bowling ball of jello in my lower abdomen for about two days. I think it took about 5 days before it was close to normal, and a week before it felt tight/flat again.
I don’t know if a week is a long time, but I think that 6 hours is definitely a short time. Milo, you didn’t say what type of surgery you had. Mine was laparoscopic TEP.
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I forgot to add – get your medical records as soon as you can. Many organizations only hold them for a few years.
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Read my recent posts if you want some thoughts on better surgeons to see. Most surgeons are not trained or mentally equipped to deal with mesh problems, they only know how to put it in. Dr. Billing, Dr. Brown, and Dr. Towfigh are all on the west coast, and all will deal with mesh problems.
Post your general location and people will offer more specific advice. Information from you on the type of mesh, and type of hernia would help also. Good luck.
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It didn’t work. You’ll have to click through from here.
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Here is a link to their English language sales literature.
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Here is an excerpt from the DynaMesh literature.
“However, the thread first has to be warp-knitted into a textile structure. Not just anyhow but tailor-made for the relevant indication. The right stitch makes the difference. Only through the right stitch can we achieve the “inner values” required, such as stability, elasticity and porosity. So the end result is not a “one fits all” implant but a specifically created DynaMesh® high-tech product. A product which enables doctors to perform their duties as effectively as possible – and which gives patients many symptom-free and safe years.”
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I recommend contacting Dr. Towfigh directly, either via message on this site, or through her practice web site. She has worked with many of the different types of membranes, meshes, and materials. You can find her presentations on the internet. Many surgeons really don’t know much about other materials, and they know little about the materials that they use for their hernia repairs. They trust that the medical device maker is supplying them with something that works. They trust the literature that is provided.
Your surgeon chose a somewhat new and unusual mesh, made from PVDF. The marketing literature is almost directly aimed at Bard and other competitive meshes. They even mention Bard’s standard sales line of “one size fits all”. But it is still a woven mesh, which Dr. Bendavid has proposed causes edema and inflammation, due to the small pores remaining, even though large pores are the goal of the weave design. It’s basically the same old mesh, just a different type of polymer and a different weave. The idea that large pores, or softer mesh, will be more comfortable is just a thought that softer and flexible has to be “more comfortable”. Like the mesh is an article of clothing. The meme is sued to make people comfortable with a new product. After the meshes are implanted, they all shrink and become boardy or leathery, nothing like when they were taken from the package.
Good luck. You have an unusual mesh, and your surgery seems unusual also, in that you had two nerves cut. You need to find somebody that is very knowledgeable, in more than just mesh implantation.
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Here is a link. Hope it makes it through.
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Hello Mbs. I think that you meant “neuritis”, not neurosis.
You’ll probably have to give more detail to get any kind of answer. It’s not even clear that a hernia is involved.
Good luck.
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quote Baris:In august 2017 i had bilateral hernia surgery in germany. The method used was the shouldice method
I believe i caused my firrst hernias by doing too much heavy work both in the gym and as an occupation whilst also playing football.
Dr. Ulrike Muschawek is known for working on athletic people and will also remove mesh. Have you considered her? She is in Germany.
Dr. William Meyers works on athletes also, although, apparently, he will not remove mesh if it is attached to healthy tissue. I’m not sure what that means but that’s what I was told.
Dr. Peter Billing in Shoreline WA will remove mesh, and does hernia repair. He might have good advice and a solution.
Dr. William Brown also works on athletes. I’m not sure of his opinion on removing mesh.
Dr. Towfigh is also a known expert in both hernia repair and mesh removal.
I don’t think that you’ll get specific advice over the internet. My best results have come from collecting my medical records in paper form, or on CD, writing a clear and concise letter, then sending it all to the doctor themselves.
Your story has many questions unanswered. It looks like you went right back to full activity within weeks or months. It doesn’t sound like the first surgery was “Shouldice approved”. You don’t say whether the mesh implantation was done via open or laparoscopic surgery. What type of mesh was used? Your medical records and a letter should explain all of that.
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quote SighFigh:I’ve seen some doctors on this forum say that mesh can be a superior repair when applied correctly when compared to tissue repairs. Does this observation also apply to thin people? I’ve seen it mentioned
that thinner people can be more sensitive to mesh implants.Would it be better in some instances for a thin person to pursue a tissue repair for an indirect hernia?
My own experience and conclusions are that when you see a description of “thin people” or “low body fat” you should mentally replace it with “active people”. Active people tend to be thin, and the surgeons and doctors reporting that “thin people” have problems are only seeing a static body, not considering activity level.
My problems with Bard Soft Mesh all came from trying to be active. Running, hiking, biking, playing sports – all caused irritation, swelling, and other problems, which lasted days and weeks after the activity. It was impossible to get close to my previous activity level, without having constant soreness and pain.
So if you are thin because you’re active, then consider it that way. If you do some research on what the surgeons known for working on professional athletes do, you’ll find that most, maybe all, of them avoid mesh, and most have negative comments about its use. See work by Dr. William Meyers, Dr. Ulrike Muschawek, and Dr. William Brown. When I was looking for someone to repair my direct hernia I came very close to traveling to Canada for the Shouldice procedure but I allowed myself to be convinced that laparoscopic mesh implantation would work. It was the worst decision of my life.
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I think that effectiveness depends on the type of hernia and the magnitude. They probably help with reducible hernias by stopping the material pushing out in the first place. But indirect hernias, where the material is pushed down in to the canal from inside probably are not be affected as much by a truss or belt. I did not try a truss or belt with my direct hernia although I did do some research on them.
Good luck with your consultation. Make sure to browse the threads on this site and read the stories. There is a “mainstream” procedure that will probably be offered to you, laparoscopy with mesh implantation, with rapid return to work or active life as a benefit. Little will be disclosed about long-term effects though. They’ll talk about “exploring” the other side, because they can and why not, and “fixing” any hernias that they find. But there is almost always some sort of potential hernia sign, so you’ll wake up with mesh on both sides.
It’s a big decision, don’t let the comforting voice of the surgeon convince you that what they offer is guaranteed to produce good results. The benefits described will probably be about reducing the risk of strangulation, a rapid return to work, and an outpatient procedure requiring no hospital stay. But if you ask about 5 years out, they will probably not have much to say. No news must be good news.
And, unfortunately, because you’re older, any new problems from mesh implantation that you experience will probably be attributed to your age. Males in their later years are about perfect mesh implantation patients.
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Working from the principle of why people take addictive drugs it’s reasonable to assume, I think, that people will generally vape or smoke until the nicotine level in their blood reaches the desired amount. So dosage level would be self-determined, regardless of mode. Nicotine level might even be higher with vaping because the ill effects of the other smoke toxins are not there. I don’t think that you can rationalize that vaping is better for healing than smoking, based on nicotine dosage. You could argue that vaping is more healthy than smoking. But, regarding healing, the vein constriction aspect of nicotine will still be there.
I’ve always thought that vaping is one of the oddest developments of modern technology that I’ve ever seen. Building an electrical device to vaporize potentially toxic oils so that a person can suck them deeper in to their lungs. It’s bizarre. No offense. Although, rolling a shrub in to a paper tube so that you can do the same with smoke is also bizarre. I grew up around that though so it seems normal.
Good luck with your decision. Seems like you’re deciding how much risk your smoking habit is worth though. Taking a chance on a hernia recurrence so that you can keep taking nicotine. Not as bad as smoking with an oxygen tank, but still…
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quote Spoonman:Does Desarda carry any long term risks other than recurrence?
McVay and Bassini I have not really researched, I only know them by name. So I would like any feedback on their benefits relative to Desarda if anyone is familiar with them.
You might try contacting surgeons directly that use one of those techniques, and ask them why they chose it. If I recall correctly, for example, Dr. Petersen in Las Vegas, uses a “modified” McVay method after he removes hernia mesh. Desarda’s technique is relatively new, I believe. I would guess that the only person who could compare it to the others is someone who uses it. Dr. Robert Tomas in Florida, does, I think. Not many others. I’m not sure that many surgeons visit this site, and the activity from them seems to be dropping. Maybe too much negativity about mesh, and too many problems reported.
Good luck. You never said what type of hernia you’re concerned with. Direct and indirect are both inguinal but they are not the same.
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quote nesd:I did have two of the doctors I’ve seen question me why I went in for surgery. It made me wonder if it was even a hernia. The Sioux Falls Dr. Peery said it could of been pulmonary, what ever that meant.
I would spend extensive time on really understanding what is going on with you. It doesn’t sound like your situation is clear, even to the experts.
In my experience, most of today’s surgeons specialize in doing certain specific things. They have trouble working outside their specialty, either because they’ve never had the training or they’ve just gotten rusty, or they are not allowed to by the organizations they work for. They’re not really “general” surgeons. Most of their professional interactions with patients are boiled down to 15 minute consultations and snap decisions about if they should do what they specialize in doing, not so much about if they really understand what’s happening. It’s a byproduct of automating the health care system.
You’ve seen four surgeons and had four different suggestions about what to do, but nothing concrete about what went wrong the first time. I would go back to the beginning and try to understand if a mistake was made in the original diagnosis and/or if the first procedure failed because of the material or the procedure, or because the wrong problem was treated. So far, it sounds like you’ve just had four people tell you that they’ll take another try.
Unfortunately, you kind of have to go from gut feel about the doctor that you are talking to. And learn more about what they are telling you. “Pulmonary” has to do with the lungs, so, dealing with air, in principle. If one doctor said you could have a “pulmonary” issue, how does that translate to inguinal hernia? Was he suggesting that you had an air bubble in your abdomen? Could it actually be a seroma?
One big positive for you is that you seem to be in a stable condition and able to think clearly and function well. So you have some time to put a good plan together. Good luck.
p.s. these are actually, in general, my thoughts for anyone who sees a surgeon. You have to help them help you.
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The second http://file dot scirp.org/pdf/IJCM_2014072117033945.pdf